Clutch letting out very far on the lever

[olie05]

Heres the problem:

I pull the clutch lever in, and I release it until it's almost all the way out, then the bike starts to move.

In my experience, this would indicate that I need to replace the friction plates, however I pulled them out and they all measured within spec. In fact they measured at the higher end of the specification. The clutch is completely adjusted and the adjustment does not seem to affect the position of the friction point, only the cable slack. (i have adjusted at both ends of the cable)

What factors change where the friction point is on the lever throw? I don't want to just throw parts at this thing, although I'm only a set of springs away from having a clutch rebuild kit*.

*clutch rebuild kit includes 9 friction plates and 5 springs, right?

[lennyz600]

on an off chance, but did you happenn to check the pushrod for any damage? and for giggles how did the metal plates look and the fingers on the basket?

[reelrazor]

on an off chance, but did you happenn to check the pushrod for any damage? and for giggles how did the metal plates look and the fingers on the basket?

Bitchin' advice right there......you are probably grinding the ball down to dust as I write this

[lennyz600]

are the balls and the pushrods sappost to be a big problem with these bikes?

and thanks reelrazor that means alot! its the only thing i could think of!

[reelrazor]

are the balls and the pushrods sappost to be a big problem with these bikes?

and thanks reelrazor that means alot! its the only thing i could think of!

Just a problem with any bike that uses that setup as a throwout bearing. But bikes like old harley big twins-that use a true throwout bearing, and Kawas and a few others that use a 'pull rod' instead of a pushrod will have the same cause of the corresponding damage/wear.

It is all about the "..then back it off a quarter turn..." part of the adjustment instructions....without that free play, the ball/throwout bearing/pullrod experiences rapid wear.

The ball/pushrod setup is a pretty minor dealio.

[gre3nskeeper]

i ended up welding my pushrod from not backing out the quarter turn however, i experienced the reverse of what you described. The clutch would disengage when the handle was super close to the bar even with it being adjusted all the way out.

[olie05]

on an off chance, but did you happenn to check the pushrod for any damage? and for giggles how did the metal plates look and the fingers on the basket?

Bitchin' advice right there......you are probably grinding the ball down to dust as I write this

...probably not.

I checked the ball and it was perfect. Also, I have plenty of free play. The problem is that the friction point is far out in the lever travel... I'm not even sure if it's really a problem because the clutch is not slipping, or anything dramatic like that.

ok... new question, if you pull the clutch in ALL the way to the handlebar, what percentage of travel (not including free play) does it take before the clutch engages?

I would say mine is about 85% of the travel from the handlebar.

[reelrazor]

..probably not.

I checked the ball and it was perfect. Also, I have plenty of free play. The problem is that the friction point is far out in the lever travel... I'm not even sure if it's really a problem because the clutch is not slipping, or anything dramatic like that.

ok... new question, if you pull the clutch in ALL the way to the handlebar, what percentage of travel (not including free play) does it take before the clutch engages?

I would say mine is about 85% of the travel from the handlebar.

Okay, cool. You originally ask what factors affect the engagement point..those are plate stack height, pushrod length, cable length(inner wire-the sheath length gets adjusted at the perch)and the starting/ending point of operation on the rotary actuator(the piece the lower cable end hooks into-and not much there to alter).

My clutch will start to grip and try to move the bike when teh lever is 25=30% out from the bar. GF's Ex250 is the same. My RZ's, RD's, GSXRs and various dirtbikes have all be about the same. Except when the pushrod wore, or the cable inner wire stretched.

Ohh, also, some aftermarket levers/perches change the the lever ratio (from pivot to cable end) and will affect both effort and engagement.

[olie05]

Okay, cool. You originally ask what factors affect the engagement point..those are plate stack height, pushrod length, cable length(inner wire-the sheath length gets adjusted at the perch)and the starting/ending point of operation on the rotary actuator(the piece the lower cable end hooks into-and not much there to alter).

My understanding is that the only thing affecting the engagement point is the plate stack height, and possibly spring stiffness. Pushrod length, cable length and rotary actuator position, when adjusted would only affect slack.

If this is not the case could you please explain?

I'm very curious because my current plates measured to the same thickness as brand new EBC friction plates, and yet my engagement point is so far out. (also, my metal plates appeared to be relatively new, with no signs of significant wear.)

[reelrazor]

My understanding is that the only thing affecting the engagement point is the plate stack height, and possibly spring stiffness. Pushrod length, cable length and rotary actuator position, when adjusted would only affect slack.

If this is not the case could you please explain?

Think a bit....

It's all in the geometrics, angle pf pull...converted angle (actuator)..altering any one of those dimensions alters how all the others interact.
what is the difference between stack height, and pushrod length? If you were shy .050" on your stack height, and you pushrod assy. was perfect....your engagement point would change, correct?

Now, if you were -.050" on the pushrod length, but your stack height was perfect, what would be the difference? Overall, from actuator to pressure plate would be the same as above, correct?

As far as the actuator, some bikes have a barrel adjuster at the bottom end of the cable, as well as at the perch(our FZRs do not). This lower barrel can be adjusted so that the actuator either starts from a negative point(and all slack is taken out at the pushrod adjuster), or ends before it's stroke is complete....this will affect engagement point.

Properly set up..that actuator starts it's sweep in an arc that is designed in...some start with the cable at 90° to the pivot..some start the pull so the cable is at 90° at midpoint.., some so it's at 90° at full stroke. It's kind of surprising how much this affects feel. The perch design/dimensions are very similar to this.

Anything that changes that designed geometry will change feel/engagement

[olie05]

I see what you're saying RR...

I guess this is the was looking at it: The lever only has a certain range, and when that range acts on the actuator, it translates into a fixed displacement at the rod (this would depend slightly on the angle of the cable attachment arm... more on that later)

Now, given that specified displacement at the rod, if you move the pressure plate away from the engine by that amount, the friction point will fall somewhere in between that travel and it's initial position. Does that make sense? Think of it as if you could actuate the clutch without having to use the lever, cable, actuator, or rod.

So now lets say my pressure plate moves 1cm away from the friction plates. Then I release it and it starts engaging once it is at .2cm from it's original position.

ok that's what I was originally thinking, and I didn't take into account the leverage ratio of the actuator.

So now if I can go from a high ratio to a low ratio as i let the lever out, I will get to the friction point sooner and the friction point should be closer to the handlebar.

I'm going to go home and play with the actuator arm angle wrt the cable at the trans. I'll report back what I find.

[apsolus]

wow you guys are blowing me away with that talk! i would remove the clutch cover and observe the pressure plate rise and return as i moved the lever. if it appears normal, then id think you d be ok

[olie05]

I played with the adjustment of the clutch a little, and it seems that my cable has stretched so far that I can not get the rotary actuator position past 90 degrees. Basically the cable is limiting my ability to change the geometry at the transmission end through adjustments.

Now I'm really going to start throwing parts at it. If I buy a new cable, and springs, and replace the plates, I will be replacing all the wear items in the system. (since my metal plates were in really good condition.)