Hydraulic Clutch Conversion Basics - Write-up Added

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mrfreeze5
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Hydraulic Clutch Conversion Basics - Write-up Added

Post by mrfreeze5 »

Gather round children, this has come up to me twice in two days, so MrFreeze is gonna drop some knowledge on you in hopes of helping people find the right parts. There are ways to do the swap properly and cheap, and there are ways to just do it cheap. I went pretty fancy with the parts and am still only around $150 for the whole swap. I am waiting on my slave plate from the machinist, but I will cover everything else for the time being and add that later.

Master Cylinders

The master cylinder is the heart of the whole system. Going with inferior parts here is just asking for trouble. Say youre 100 miles from home, youre cheap Chinese billet MC just sprung a leak and now your clutch doesnt work. Doesnt seem like such a good deal now huh? Your best bet for quality is a trusted name. Brembo, Nissin, and probably Tockico and a few others. Lots of bikes came with hydraulic clutches stock and can be donors. Some CBRs, some big Kawis, Hayabusas, etc all had hydraulic clutches stock. You could use the MC from any of them, but Ill focus on a few that are most common.


YZF750

Its a conventional Nissin MC and matches to a YZF600/R6/R1 brake master nicely. It uses a reservoir cup like the brake MC. It is also one of the cheapest. I can find these for $5-10 on UK ebay. Sure you have to pay a few dollars extra shipping, but its still a good deal.

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FZR1000

The 1k isnt as common a choice but will work. It uses a coffin cup integrated reservoir though. Not very attractive, but will match the stock 600 brake MC(if you're in to that sort of thing). These seem to be a bit pricier, maybe $25-100.

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Ducati/Aprilia

Ducatis use Brembos. I like Brembos a lot. The quality is never in question and performance is always reliable and smooth, and parts are readily available if need be. Plus the piston size is suited to the FZR. If you start mixing and matching masters and slaves you want to make sure they are of compatible size with each other and the engine. The cheaper route would be to use a Ducati Monster MC. It is Brembo but has an integrated coffin cup. I got this MC with stainless hose and slave cylinder for $40. A complete system.

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If you step up to a 748/996/998 master cylinder, it uses a res cup and a better MC, but they are a bit more expensive, maybe $50-100. You can always tell a Ducati MC because the reservoir cup is held to the MC by a bracket. Aprilia RSVs up to 2003 use the same kind, but without the reservoir bracket.

Image

Late model Ducatis like the 848/1098/1198 use forged Brembo radial MCs(YUM!). These are probably the best you will find in the used market. The 749/999 version uses a weird coffin cup shaped reservoir, but it is not integrated into the master cylinder, its a cup. the 1098/1198/848 uses a res cup on a bracket. For some reason, the Ducati MCs seem to run more expensive, $100+. Aprilia RSVs from 04+ used the same kind MC, but with a normal round reservoir cup that mounts to the triple, not the MC. This is the type I am using. Mine came with a CRG long billet lever and only cost $110. They seem to be cheaper than the Ducatis although its the same MC, I find them on ebay UK quite a bit for under $50, but dont be surprised if theyre more. Pictured is an Aprilia Brembo radial MC(with CRG lever).

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New

You can buy a new MC if you so desire, but if you do, there is only one choice IMO. Brembo. If not Brembo, there are one or two others out there worth a hoot, but theyre high end custom and top $$. That Chinese/Taiwanese brembo knock offs on ebay are not an option. Period. Theyre crap, and the machining standards are nonexistent. Parts dont fit, stuff leaks, blah blah. Dont even waste your time and money on these. Do it right. And even the best parts need to be serviced, what happens when you need to rebuild the MC and need parts? But if you are buying a Brembo, go radial, and there are a lot of options out there, but make SURE its an authentic Brembo and not a knock off. Even the people at Brembo cant tell the difference between those cheap knockoffs and their products just from looking at it.


Slave Cylinders

Not a lot of options here. Traditionally, this conversion is done with the Ducati(Brembo) slave cylinder. It is smaller than the Yamaha slave found on the YZF750 and FZR1000. The Yam slave probably wouldnt even fit, but I havent checked. The adapter plate that is available is designed for the Ducati slave. One downside to the Ducati slave is that it is a sealed unit and not rebuildable with the exception of an oring on the outside. They are known to spring leaks at times, but replacements are cheap and plentiful, usually $20-40. There are plenty of aftermarket slaves available for the Ducati with different sized pistons, these can range from about $60-150. Just about any model Duc is acceptable from the 916 up I think including monsters and STs. Just verify by looking at it, you want the one with the sun shaped recesss.

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Line

Again Ducati is the way to go, its about the correct length and can be routed to hide the hose. Steel braided lines are going for $40-60 new on ebay. I got mine with a slave and a Monster MC for $40, so check for deals. Or you could always make your own or have one custom made to length, but expect more cost and lead time.


Slave Cylinder Mount

If you didnt know already, Modking is the man! :udaman and makes the plate that replaces the stock sprocket and allows the mounting of the Ducati slave cylinder over the FZR pushrod. If you need one, MK is the man to contact. They are reasonably priced and easily installed. Pics soon.


That should give you a good start. Installation pics coming soon! Hopefully ThatKid will chime in on his swap.
Last edited by mrfreeze5 on Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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cad600
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Re: Hydraulic Clutch Conversion Basics

Post by cad600 »

Right on the money.

One minor correction about the res. style. The 749/999 series uses radial MC with a coffin style res. The 848/1098/1198 uses a newer radial MC with a traditional round style res.

Please note that if you have never ridden with a hydraulic clutch before, it is different. You can get a better feel, but the lever pull is much harder. It doesn't take too long to get use to it though.
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Re: Hydraulic Clutch Conversion Basics

Post by mrfreeze5 »

Youre exactly right and I actually forgot to post up this pic the first time.

Ducati Brembo radial

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Re: Hydraulic Clutch Conversion Basics

Post by yamaha_george »

Mr.F,
The matched Ducati/Brembo coffin units are an easy find on E-bay as a lot of guys want the seperate reservoir look.

I used a honda slave unit although I also have sitting in the spares bin the slave unit off a ducati in case I wanna do the FZR.

Here are pictures of the RD conversion to Hydra clutch

http://www.saltmine.org.uk/kgb/yp4.html

The matching plate was done with a sabre saw and a file, I also made sure the bleed outlet was exactly vertical believe me you do not want air in that system!
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Re: Hydraulic Clutch Conversion Basics

Post by _Will_ »

what is the benefit on a bike like the FZR besides "better feel"? I can understand on a high powered bike like a TL1000r which I always thought it was for the super strong clutch springs. I have plenty of feel with my cable and never have problems taking off smooth or feathering it. I also have aftermarket springs.
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Re: Hydraulic Clutch Conversion Basics

Post by yamaha_george »

_Will_ wrote:what is the benefit on a bike like the FZR besides "better feel"? I can understand on a high powered bike like a TL1000r which I always thought it was for the super strong clutch springs. I have plenty of feel with my cable and never have problems taking off smooth or feathering it. I also have aftermarket springs.
I just found on the RD with some A/market springs (Barnnett) the cable was not that easy feel any more so I tried Hydraulics to see how it went
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Re: Hydraulic Clutch Conversion Basics

Post by _Will_ »

I had heard from people how much stiffer after market springs were so when I did pull in the lever it was much like finding out your date has a padded bra, it wasn't what I expected but I was happy with the result.

and I went with the EBC kevlar kit, just got too good of a deal
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Re: Hydraulic Clutch Conversion Basics

Post by mrfreeze5 »

Im switching to a hydro clutch because my cable clutch in perfect adjustment, with a new, lubed cable, has a lot of travel to it and a lot of useless travel where nothing is happening, and the clutch engages very far out in the lever travel. Plus my left wrist has problems, so heavy traffic makes it so I almost cant move my wrist anymore. The hydro clutch should be much more predictable and even, and there are different sized piston slave cylinders available for the Ducatis. So between piston size in the MC, and in the slave, I can fine tune the feel and resistance I want in the system.

Another reason I am swapping is because my clutch cable is interfering with my headlight and keeps pushing it down.
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Re: Hydraulic Clutch Conversion Basics

Post by thatkid »

I found a few pictures of the hydro on my bike.


This is the finished setup with slave mounted to the plate and the plate mounted to the motor. (In case you couldn't tell...)
Image
Image

And a final shot with the chain. I couldn't find any of just the plate.
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Overall I liked the hydro clutch over the cable. The feel was better I think. The pull was definitely harder but I bought me a nice upgraded slave cylinder on ebay for a steal a little while ago that's supposed to reduce the pull by 30%. So that should help out. The swap is super easy once you have the parts. Nothing like bolt on! You never have to worry about cable stretch and/or broken clutch cables again either.
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Re: Hydraulic Clutch Conversion Basics

Post by M in KC »

Cheese and Rice TK, your motor is so freakin' clean I could hardly tell what Iwas looking at. Really clean install and thanks to MrFreeze and the others who have shared their pearls of widosm on this topic.
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Re: Hydraulic Clutch Conversion Basics

Post by mrfreeze5 »

Guess what I just found out. Since I have a YZF swingarm and offset front sprocket, I can just go screw myself. Hydraulic clutch conversion kit to be for sale soon. banghead
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Re: Hydraulic Clutch Conversion Basics

Post by haro504 »

i assume your sprocket is hitting the bracket since it is a removeable rod that pushes the clutch cant you just have a longer one made and space out the bracket. or have the hub milled down and use the stock sprocket. i guess its just how bad do you want it
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Re: Hydraulic Clutch Conversion Basics

Post by mrfreeze5 »

Yeah, having a really bad day. I took a breather and came back to take a look at it and I should be able to make it work. I shouldnt even have opened the package the way today has been going but I couldnt wait. Luckily, I got a new, longer pushrod tip with the bracket. I need to space the bracket out about 8mm which works out well since I can use an 8mm ball bearing inside the slave. I need to make some longer spacers for the bolts, I might work on that tomorrow, but Im not touching it again today.
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Re: Hydraulic Clutch Conversion Basics

Post by cad600 »

If you got the kit from modking, you should have told him about the sprocket conversion. He made mine and included longer bolts with spacer tubing and a longer clutch rod.
Yes, that is a Single Sided Swingarm FZR600 that I built.

Something is lurking, waiting, wanting to be built......It calls to me from the darkness....

I can finally see the light at the end of the tunnel....Then I realize that it is the train coming to run my ass over....
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Re: Hydraulic Clutch Conversion Basics

Post by mrfreeze5 »

cad600 wrote:If you got the kit from modking, you should have told him about the sprocket conversion. He made mine and included longer bolts with spacer tubing and a longer clutch rod.
It COMPLETELY slipped my mind. Totally my fault. Luckily he sent me a longer clutch rod already so I can get away with adding a ball bearing on top of that.
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