Fuel Injection kits for the FZR400, FZR600, YZF600

[Freestyle72]

My first quote back on those intake adapters is $330 so far. Still waiting to hear from a few more machine shops.

FS,
some where (could have been on this board,may be under gear head section???) I read that some one was doing swap outs i.e. you send a set of bodies and he sends you another set but complete with all the adaptions done.

I am not sure where that post was made? I know a guy with an RZ 350 EFI was offering to do that by cutting the TB in half for you and respacing the remaining two bodies appropriately. smurph is his username on the rz forum.

However the adapter is to let the throttlebody mate to the head. I will still need to re-space the throttlebody, which is actually very easy except for brazing/extending the fuel rail. I am actually re-thinking my plan on the adapters for now I think I have another design in mind which may be much more inexpensive to machine and may be a good option for fit and finish. I just need to find some time to get in my garage. I also need a set of 03/04 R6 throttlebody boots or 06-09 R6s throttleboddy boots, intake manifolds whatever you want to call them. I would get them off ebay I just don't fancy waiting for shipping.

[fazersteve210]

i guess no one wants to be retarded and put a turbo on it then huh. cause this efi thing is the way to go... iv got two 600 fzrs and an old tiny turbo to play with and it wont be long till its fitted. the only problem is finding decent carbs for a blow thru turbo setup. iv heard gsxr 1000 carbs from thi late 80s hold pressure good enough to use but how the F am i gonna jet it so it idles right?

[Freestyle72]

Adapting carbs from another bike is almost the same difficulty as adapting throttlebodies to work as well. If I were going to run turbo I would do EFI anyways. Because having an ECU to help control the boost would be pretty important to me especially on a motorcycle.

The EFI thing isn't as hard as it sounds. It just comes down to executing correctly.

[Racing]

FWIW i do that crap for a living and what i can tell you right off the bat is that it is ALWAYS more money and trouble involved than meets the eye.
No exceptions.

Worth it still?
Yeah well,don´t expect any appreciable performance increase. When done mapping you can suspect the bike to start more easily and be more well behaved under cruise,idle and light load conditions.(This mainly due to the EFI way better resolution)

FWIW i´ve been involved in the development of a swedish designed EFI by the name of VEMS-as in versatile engine managament system. So yes...i know intricately well what goes into it .

Many try to perform the actual mapping themselves,and from time to time not without merit. For a bike though you essentialy have to have access to a chassis dyno and expect to spend hours and hours in it=cost.
If the idea is to make an old bike behave like a new one there is no way around this.
Figuring out the needs at WOT is the easy part.

[DonTZ125]

With the new live tuning in the latest editions of TunerStudio, partial-throttle is tuned - and well! - simply by driving around. A scientific approach could be taken by making multiple passes in an empty parking lot, at progressively higher throttle settings.

Tuning for power is simplified using Megalog Viewer which has a horsepower function based on the weight of the bike, gear ratio, and is calculated using the acceleration rate. This is supposedly being integrated into TunerStudio in the near future (it's the same guy) so you only need one program.

[Racing]

Believe what you will.
I´ve been around the various autotune systems since the beginning of dawn and if you wish for an engine that is as civilized as a production one from later yrs they simply dont cut it.
The transitions especialy can be very hard to sort out-then again i guess it to a degree comes down to what one sees as an acceptable level of performance.
The whole point of a FI though is dynamic response and driveability in my book.
To the point where a good "yardstick" is to hand the keys for whatever vehicle to the mrs and see how she takes to it.

Issue really is that many get to hooked up in crunching numbers when working with EFI systems. All the sensors and what have you not are merely tools at best and should be considered as such. Various tables used likewise.
Everything said n done,if you just crunch the numbers you´ll be off as what drives the machine is a human being. Not a machine in itself.

The these days widespread use of O2s and EGTs are IMO starting to become a menace as very few carry the true knowledge needed to interpret the info they deliver.
Transitions being the key word here.
Christ...i´ve had "pro" racers come running happier than any camper out there LOUDLY explain that all is top notch as they´ve seen maximum EGTs in the 680degC region!!
What´s worse is that when one tries to explain to them that the numbers they just got are completely pointless nonsense and apart from being wrong tells NOTHING,then you´re the bad guy.

See...there IS a difference between the run off the mill "programer/mapper" and us that actualy charge good money to pull the same job.
No offense ment anywhere but i´ve been doing this crap pro for almost 30yrs by now. Ever since the advent of the early Haltch F3s...(which was in the early 80s)

..and i´ve come to play around with more systems than i care to remember even. Eveything from Motec 800s to Bosch´s own aftermarket to Electromotives to Haltech to DTA to Omex to.....and the list never ends..
BTDT.
We´ve fooled around with autotune from a pro POW since the early Aussie Autronic attempts too,and the truth of the matter is that they at best assist you on reaching some of the numbers within the matrixes.
(FWIW VEMS has carried autotune since the onstart too-IMO to no avail)

...and there´s many many many more potholes than that...
Just take something as delicate as the positioning of the IAT sensor...or the various types of injectors and how their pattern will affect engine performance...or....and again the list continues.
The internet is a beutiful thing but sometimes people come off over the net trying to tell you how "easy" something is. All of us that live IRL knows otherwise,and this holds true for many more levels than EFI...that much is for sure.

I appreciate that i come off as negative here. Please don´t regard what i write that way but instead take the essence of it to heart.
Like i wrote.
There´s ALWAYS more to it than meets the eye. ALWAYS.

[Freestyle72]

I totally understand that there is always more to it than meets the eye. I am doing this as a learning experience but also would like to see for example how good of fuel mileage I can get out of it among other things. As far as having to tune on a dyno, as Don mentioned the new software and hardware is becoming very good at compensating for desired AFRs etc. TONs of guys tune their cars this and never hit a dyno. I know driveability is more important on a motorcycle but I don't think it's going to be an issue to be honest.

As far as keeping the stock carbs vs EFI set-up well either way if you want to get maximum horsepower then TONS of dyno time is required either way. And tuning carbs on a dyno is an all day even as you have to keep removing the carbs, changing the jets and then doing another run and logging the AFRs again and again. At least with an EFI ECU you can make your adjustments on the fly without going through that whole process. I appreciate your perspective on this and I don't view it as negativity. Since you are so experienced on the subject matter I expect that if I post up some logs you may be helpful in identifying some of the problem areas if you spot any?

[Racing]

I hear ya.
I kind of saw myself as the one that pi**ed on the party,which wasn´t my intention in any way.
It´s just that getting it right can be MUCH harder than all these "internet keyboard jockeys" claim that are all over.
MUCH.

Lots is to be found knowledge wise over the net though so my advice is to read up-from various forums where the info seems reasonable. Pure common sense goes a long way.

Like i touched upon previously take something as "simple" as the placement of an IAT sensor. Or...more so just moving it around. It will have a TREMENDOUS effect on transition through the rev/load range.
O2 control in turn is another area where the novice often gets into trouble. Resolution as well as recovery times and what have you not.
Another word of advice is to NEVER trust in the O2 in closed loop for anything close to engine load. EVER.
Also be aware that the current crop wideband setups used by many use the Bosch LSU4 of some sorts and that sensor has an electronic response time of approx 0.1sec.Add to that any time needed,which is a dynamic number,for the travling gas and you soon realize why. In short when walking the edge you at best get average asumptions from it.
Hysteresis of the tables used to run it in turn needs to be adressed by someone that knows what he´s doing IMO. In the case of a system with true closed loop WB control and the matrix that goes with it...that is secondary really.
For starters though always use the O2 as read ONLY.

EFI can be a fun learning curve but as such you rightly reach a point where all the reading in the world wont do you any good anymore and you need to get practical.

Another word of advice for the novice installer is to shy away from VR based trigger systems the first times out if at all possible. VR systems are WAY more prone to picking up "dirt" in the signal then Hall effects one and altho a Hall effects sensor,like the honeywell bull GT101,is somewhat more expensive to pick up it can for the novice installer be THE item to save the day. Be VERY respectful that OEM installers can have a whole BUNCH of engineers running around developing how the layout should look for over 6 months to a year to solve that crap...
See....even for a running VR system there WILL be misfires of a higher percentage than the equivalent Hall...just take my word for it,and investigating VR signal quality AND how the "reciever" of the box takes care of said signal really takes an oscilloscope and the knowledge how to run one. Then add the dynamics of a moving vehicle and you start to get an idea. The Hall effects sensor is a god send in that respect as it carries,the GT101,an onboard filter in turn that puts out a square wave signal that is MUCH easier to read clearly for most systems. In the case of cars we normaly say that a car equipped with a VR OEM(which most are) can keep it IF everything is kept stock from that respect. Down to the routing of the trigger cable. VRs in turn have less change of malfire when "occupied".Ie;the more trigger events the better. Just look at a wheel for a F1...they´re normaly of 120 teeth.
FWIW at the shop of mine i keep a 2 channel handheld Fluke and make good use of it.

Most issues with EFI can,apart from pure mapping,most often be traced to two things.
Trigger errors and ground errors. In the case of the latter it can be imperative to keep basic understanding of ground loops and how they can affect things.

For a bike in turn...
I was hired to figure out less than satisfactory running of a harley pro-bike running methanol on 2 liter+ displacement about a yr back. This with an MS system. Everything said n done we had to abandon the MS unit as the issue were traced down to vibrations from the running bike.
In short,the MS system used wasn´t developed to handle the downright massive vibrations implimented by that 2200cc monster V twin.
Bring it up as it just goes to show you that from time to time you can run into issues you didn´t expect i guess...

[DonTZ125]

Hiya, Racing. I liked your comment on the litmus test for smoothness - hand the keys to the SO, see how loud the complaints are! There are one or two guys on the MS sites who have two tune files, one for them, one for "others" - sort of like a 'valet' key on modern cars, that lock out half the power...

Your comment on not trusting the O2 sensor anywhere near WFO - is that just for NB, or WB as well? The basic MS1 actually locks out O2 correction at (I think) >70% load.

Interesting discussion on VR vs Hall - one of the most frequent discussions on the MS sites is how to sort out an errant VR signal. That said, I've also seen one or two fellows complaining that their Hall sensor won't drop back to 'off' on a 24-1 wheel. Each system has it's pros and cons.

Honeywell GT101 - One of the main developers on the MSExtra site absolutely swears by the GT101, recommends it to anyone with a funky (or full-custom) install. Like you, in his experience it just saves so much effort.

Ground-loops. Oh, yeah. "I've got battery, ECU, ignitors, and sensors grounded in 18 different places - why can't I get it to work?!"

[Racing]

Yeah. IMO there are many many fallacys when it comes to EFI.
Some of the more common ones are "start maps" and "maps for passing X"(as in smog checks asf).
I´ve been doing this for a rather long time and to this day i have no idea what that is.

I don´t get it and what´s more i don´t get peoples reasoning as far as that goes? I mean...the engine will tell what it is able to deliver. From any aspect in my book and you can´t very well ask it to do something the hardparts within wasn´t designed to.?
*shakes head*
If one of the criterias for instance is to reach a 100ppm HC pollutant and you do that,why would you want to strive AWAY from that as you´re done?
Or...take the implimentation and intelligent use of IAC motors. That can certainly be used to calm a "jumpy" engine down as long as we´re talking plenum setup,and as such affect idle and light load pollutants too.
Sorry to say very very few invest the time needed to grasp a basic understanding of these matters,and they DO ad up!!!

Yeah.
VR trigger setups/issues can be hard to solve. As always just cause there´s more to it than meets the eye.
A few yrs back we spent considerable time trying to see some sort of pattern in this,and to this day the best "answer" we can come up with is to keep the POS VR as occupied as you can.
Amongst other setups we fooled around with a VEMS unit on an old cossie merc. When we moved the trigger WIRE like half a foot in either direction where it ran along the passenger side inner fender we started to see interferance over the scope-with the eventual trigger error down the line.
The truth of the matter is that a VR sensor is nothing but one big ass microphone and as such will catch up on anything it can and pay that forward,and then it is the ECUs job to sort out what IS a trigger pulse and what´s not.Residual thresholds be damned kind of....
Hard at its best to say the least,and the lesson learned is that the OEM boys that play around with this style of work are no fools. The VRs impedance and type is a deliberate choice and so is the routing of the trigger wire 100 times out of 100.
Hence...why you SHOULD be able to get away with a "motronic setup" if so equipped stock. Someone has done most of the jo already...
Other than that.... Hall effects.

Yes.
You are correct in that the Hall effects GT101 will work just the opposite of a VR in as much that it frowns on to many trigger events per cycle. We´ve run em with success to 18 teeth,but it is also imperative within reason how much ferrite passes the sensor. That aside though...install in and forget it,and i don´t know about you guys but i for one have got better things to do than to try n sort VR trigger errors out.
That much for "main" triggers. When it comes to home signal triggers via the cams or control of the VANOS or whatever....Hall 100 out of 100.

Another common "fault" is that the general installer misjudge the importance of the physical stability of the trigger,and it often gets worse when these people are to handle a two or three trigger setup.
I´ve seen trigger wheels made out of sheetmetal stock in radial that basicaly expanded the living daylights out of the trigger sensor...and of course the installer stood there looking like a rabbit caught by the highbeams.
Hell...i´ve seen people been handed the advice of need of shielding the VR wire-to combat EFI and RMI-and what they did was to run into moms kitchen to steal the aluminium foil that the wrapped around the sensor wire..
U could say....that´s one way of doing it,however it isn´t the CORRECT way..

I was recently involved in a 2001 Reynard super oval indycar where the owners thought it would be a good idea to pick up the electrics needed as far as wires,fuse holders n such from the local NAPA dealer. Weeeeeeeeeeell....
Let´s just say that i welded the Inconel 625 hedders up and abandoned the project....cause you don´t put together a 250mph car at like 200 000 dollars and cheap out on stuff like that. EFI in that case btw was a DTA S80...

I guess what i´m saying is that there is no magic. Just application of common sense,hard work and time...a job that deserves to be done deserves to be done RIGHT.

[Racing]

On O2s.

Yeah. That goes for a WB as well. The advent of WBs on a wide front has been a marvel from many respects.(I was around when the old Bosch 11s were the ones to get-which basicaly was an economical ruin).
Again though it comes down to pure common sense.

To map an engine i dont CARE how many sensors you´ve got around. You HAVE to be engine savy to pull it off with success. You have to be analythical and you have to question yourself over and over. In the case of a WB LSU4 control of any sorts it is to be regarded as a TOOL. Nothing more nothing less.
Put it into reasonable perspective.

You build n put together a 20 000 dollar motor. All good.
Now you´re supposed to put trust enough in a 40 dollar electromechanical item to run that sucker safe. A fallable Nerst cell no less.
TBH...does that sound like sound judgement?

I recap. The widespread use of WB O2 has ment a LOT to many of us. The cure of all ills though it is not. Not by a friggin landslide.
Btw.
When fooling with WB while mapping recalibrate OFTEN. If the name of the game is to run the jagged edge you need to KNOW...not asume...

EGTs in turn,dont even get me started. I´ll say this much though. Out of a 100 EGTs installed i´d wager that 98 of them are installed wrong,and hence the info they put out is useless.
Even for someone like me.

[yamaha_george]

FreeStyle,
after all that very thought provoking back ground info are you still thinking of going forward with this Mod?

[Freestyle72]

FreeStyle,
after all that very thought provoking back ground info are you still thinking of going forward with this Mod?

Yes I am still in the engineering/brainstorming phase. Trying to come up with something more cost effective before I move forward. If I can think of a solution to my problem I could save like $300 on the build. Similarly if yamaha had done us all a favour and placed the cam chain off to either side it would not have complicated issues so much. I could have made a simple plate that bolts to the head. And then bolt the R6 intake manifolds to the head. And then re-space throttle bodies and focus on the electrics from there. I am very picky about fit and finish when it comes to this kind of thing, so I am really trying to figure out the best solution for this at the moment.

Maybe someone can explain me this. How much of the intake manifold is aluminum and how much of it is rubber? From what I can tell a fair bit more than I originally thought was aluminum, or the rubber is just extremely dense/stiff.




Since the port holes line up almost perfectly only the bolt spacing/orientation is stopping this from being a bolt on affair. I was thinking of cutting the flange off the boot and having a custom flange welded on in the right orientation.

[DonTZ125]

Hiya, Freestyle.

Are you talking pre-06 R6 / post '06 R6S TBs? I believe the CL distance is 73.5mm - not much, but perhaps enough to screw you up. The 96mm center gap is probably easier to deal with than the 72mm outboard gaps; it's just a matter of cutting and stretching the fuel rail, and tacking on an extended 'finger' between the #2 & #3 bell cranks. This is basically what Smurph did with his RZ350 project.

Trimming 1.5mm from a fairly compact assembly - ick...

[Freestyle72]

Ya that was rough. My digital calipers battery is dead so I was using a ruler basically .

There is room to shave off 1.5mm from the bodies but I think the rubber boots can take up the 1.5mm misalignment. since it will be .75mm per boot, which is pretty minimal.

I would normally not hesitate to shave that 1.5mm off but it will complicate things in the send that the fuel rail will need to be cut in 3 spots, instead of 1. thus welded 3 times... So that actually concerns me. However space is super tight between the frame rails and I may actually need my 3mm back. I would rather not have to do a full custom fuel rail if I can avoid it. My whole focus is on getting the damn boots working somehow first. Once I am past that hurdle I think the TBs will be less challenging as I will have a definate baseline for what will work/ won't work.