coil over plug idea...

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Re: coil over plug idea...

Post by DonTZ125 »

Good catch. This is somewhat infuriating; I had the '07 manual in .pdf, but still somehow managed to convince myself that all the years were CDI. I have a set of '03 COPs (CDI, 0.2 ohm Primary) en route... banghead

The wiring should be fairly simple, especially if you have the COP sub-harness and the mating connector clipped from a donor main harness (ahem). R/W from the FZR TCI would go to the R/Bk on the R6 harness; O (1-4) would split to the O & Gy/Gr; Gy (2-3) to the Gy/R & O/Gr. Resistance may be an issue; two 1.2 ohm coils in parallel have an effective resistance of only 0.6 ohms, allowing 3x the current through the TCI box compared to the 1.8-2.2 ohm stock coil. A 1.4 ohm resistor in series with each pair of coils should improve the situation. It might be preferable to wire the coil pairs in series; this would require some minor surgery to the COP sub-harness.

I'm going to get all pedantic on a few points of your post. First, on the FZR the SECONDARY coil is grounded to the frame; the primary grounds through the TCI box. Second, there are two signal lines from the FZR TCI, one per coil; the Gy (2-3) lead splits off to drive the tach.

This is getting interesting... :cheers:
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Re: coil over plug idea...

Post by match417 »

DonTZ125 wrote:Good catch. This is somewhat infuriating; I had the '07 manual in .pdf, but still somehow managed to convince myself that all the years were CDI. I have a set of '03 COPs (CDI, 0.2 ohm Primary) en route... banghead

The wiring should be fairly simple, especially if you have the COP sub-harness and the mating connector clipped from a donor main harness (ahem). R/W from the FZR TCI would go to the R/Bk on the R6 harness; O (1-4) would split to the O & Gy/Gr; Gy (2-3) to the Gy/R & O/Gr. Resistance may be an issue; two 1.2 ohm coils in parallel have an effective resistance of only 0.6 ohms, allowing 3x the current through the TCI box compared to the 1.8-2.2 ohm stock coil. A 1.4 ohm resistor in series with each pair of coils should improve the situation. It might be preferable to wire the coil pairs in series; this would require some minor surgery to the COP sub-harness.

I'm going to get all pedantic on a few points of your post. First, on the FZR the SECONDARY coil is grounded to the frame; the primary grounds through the TCI box. Second, there are two signal lines from the FZR TCI, one per coil; the Gy (2-3) lead splits off to drive the tach.

This is getting interesting... :cheers:
I guess i got confused somewhere along the way, i remember looking at the wiring diagram and thinking that the red/white wire went straight to the cdi, but i guess not. It is a hot wire. So oops..sorry. I guess the setup is more similar to the 06/07 high revs than i thought.

1st of all, nothing splits off to drive the tach, there are two different gray wires coming from the CDI, one goes to the tach, the other goes to the coil. Unless my wiring diagram is wrong and you have traced these wires out and yamaha split the wire off. I can see that happening, but i'm just going off my diagram, and it shows two gray wires from the CDI. What book do you have? I'm curious.

2nd, both of the coils are bolted together, then bolted into the frame. So they both ground to the frame. There is no ground wire that goes from the coil to the CDI.

3rd, the current isn't carried through the CDI, the current is carried on the red/white wire for the coil to charge up. Gray and Orange are just signal pulses, they carry no major load. What i can see happening, is if the 4 new coils draw more amperage than the system was designed to handle, it might blow the fuse, that is if it goes over what the fuse is rated at, i'm sure they left enough to spare. But what i would do differently than you is have a split off of the red/white wire into it's own fuse, separate from the ignition fuse. Or you can just up the fuse by 5 amps if it pops.

And yeah, i would wire it the same way, but i don't see the need for resistors because the signal coming from the CDI is just a pulse that tells the coil to fire.
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Re: coil over plug idea...

Post by DonTZ125 »

Hiya, Match.

I see two points of disagreement here. First, a bit of terminology - the FZR does NOT have a CDI box. It has a TCI box. I know it's common usage to refer to the electronic ignition box of any vehicle as 'the CDI', but it's incorrect and - especially in a case like this where we started off talking about using CDI coils with a TCI controller - a source of confusion and potentially damaged parts.

Second, the orange and grey wires between the FZR TCI and the coils ARE major current paths. For most of the crank's rotation, current flows from the battery to the main key switch to the primary coil (R/W hot wire, R/B on the '06+ R6) to the TCI (O & Gy wires on the FZR) to ground. When the Black Box decides it's time to fire a spark, it opens an internal switch (turns off a transistor) which stops the flow of current through that particular control wire, collapses the magnetic field around the primary coil, and induces major voltage in the secondary coil which throws a spark across the plug(s). I did refer to it as a 'signal wire' in my previous post; after more thought, I'd suggest 'control wire' is more accurate. I strongly believe the resistors are critical to preventing a fried box, especially with the CDI-type coils currently wending their way to my doorstep. If you were to wire two '06+ TCI-type coils in series, I would agree that resistors are not necessary, but you may or may not get enough current flow to sufficiently saturate the coils to throw strong sparks, especially at high revs (more critical on my screaming little beast than on your loafing middleweight :-D )

I have seen two wiring diagrams for the FZR600. The .gif file by Naeslas, oft referred to on FZR Archives, does show two grey wires coming from the TCI. The official Yamaha service manual, also avail on the Archives, shows one grey wire that splits off between the 2-3 coil and the tach. The link below takes you to the table of contents; you want chapter 8 part 1.
http://www.fzrarchives.com/ipb/index.ph ... opic=36296
It is possible that Yamaha made an error in their manual, and that Naeslas physically traced the wires. Since the same wiring arrangement is shown in the 400 manual, I'm more inclined to go with Yamaha's version (short of going out, digging the bike out, and spending a few minutes tracing wires :yuck: ).

There is no logic or control in the coils; they are lumps of iron with wire wrapped around them. There is no 'signal' pulse from the Black Box, be it CDI or TCI. Current is either normally on then chopped (TCI) or normally off then pumped (CDI) through the wires from the Box to the coil.

You may have a point about the fuse. I think I'd put it inline with the resistor in the O & Gy wire paths; directly protects the TCI box...

:cheers:
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Re: coil over plug idea...

Post by match417 »

cool, i'm not saying i disagree with you, you definitely know a lot more about the TCI/CDI differences than i do. I just know the basics of how they work and the basic differences between the two systems, i haven't really read that much about them. As far as me calling the "black box" a CDI, i've always called carbureted vehicles control boxes "CDI's", and fuel injected vehicles "ECU's", but i do see how it can create some confusion to someone else that's reading this and doesn't understand.

And if you believe that a set of resistors will prevent me from frying my box (considering i have the extra cash to do this mod) then i'll put some inline with my system if/when i buy the coils.

I don't think there is a way to successfully set up the two coils in series on the FZR, so we would have to stick with the parallel wiring. If the Gy or O wire is wired straight to one coil, then if it's wired over to the other coil from the point that it's connected at the pin on the coil, the coil will still run as if it's set up in parallel because the other coil isn't inline, it just splits off at the pin. If you think of wiring a speaker, + is from the deck, then the - coming off of the speaker goes to the + on the other speaker, and then the - goes back to the deck. The coil isn't designed to run like this, maybe if we had a ground point, then we could do this, but the TCI coils from the high rev don't have a ground wire. It looks like they might be set up to ground through the spark plug, i don't know, this is where i get confused. I don't see a ground wire, unless the 4 separate colored wires that go to the ecu are ground wires that are also control.
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Re: coil over plug idea...

Post by DonTZ125 »

Your speaker analogy is exactly what I was on about WRT wiring in series. Clip the control wire on the connector sub-harness for the #1 COP, clip the power wire on the #4 connector, and jumper them together; the wire stubs that lead to the sub-harness would be taped off. The main harness connector would have the O signal wire connected to the #4 lead, with power to the #1. Lather rinse repeat for the 2-3 COPs.

The four coloured wires leading to the R6 Black Box ARE the ground / control wires; the R6 design controls the spark independently. (I don't know that the capacity is actually USED, just that the wiring allows it.) :headscratch:

Like I said, this mod can be done in series or parallel. Series is probably safer / easier on the FZR's TCI, but parallel may be required to avoid coil charging limitations.
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Re: coil over plug idea...

Post by olie05 »

Image

Who wants to try this with a set of cbr f4i pencil coils?

edit: Updated image to reflect series rather than parallel connection of the coils.
Last edited by olie05 on Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: coil over plug idea...

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olie05 wrote:Image

Who wants to try this with a set of cbr f4i pencil coils?
Diagrams wrong.It would fire the wrong cylinders
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Re: coil over plug idea...

Post by FasterThanUr »

Is the cbr tci?

This is how it would theoretically have to be wired

Image
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Re: coil over plug idea...

Post by match417 »

actually, the orange wire does fire cyls 1/4 and the gray wire fires cyls 2/3. I've done a LOT of messing with my coil wiring over the last couple weeks. And I just double checked it in my book, just to be 100% sure.

And yeah, IF you can find TCI coil over plugs from another bike, that would work, most bikes I've seen are CDI instead, I used to have a link to a webpage that said which bike from the mid 90's up had TCI or CDI coils, unfortunately I lost the link, and I can't find it again via google, but I'll be sure to post it when I find it again. Also, the TCI coil over plugs have 3 pins, so don't let the 3rd pin confuse you, that would be ground, so make sure you get a correct wire diagram with the right pinout on the coil, unless you can get the plugs off of the harness for the coil overs.

Oh, it doesn't really matter, but just so you know, the red/white wire is always hot, and comes straight from the fuse box, it splits off to the engine kill switch and from there it goes into the TCI box and also to the main relay. So it doesn't come from the TCI box as your diagram suggests.
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Re: coil over plug idea...

Post by FasterThanUr »

match417 wrote:actually, the orange wire does fire cyls 1/4 and the gray wire fires cyls 2/3. I've done a LOT of messing with my coil wiring over the last couple weeks. And I just double checked it in my book, just to be 100% sure.
Your right I just double checked my self.
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Tom Tom GPS
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O5 R6 radiator
07 R6 rear shock
97 YZF 600 carbs
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Daytona stabilizer
06 GSXR600 Front End Stainless brake lines front and back
Vortex sprockets 15/49 gearing with RK 520 XSO X-Ring Chain
76 CB750 HeadLight with HID Kit


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Re: coil over plug idea...

Post by olie05 »

I revised the diagram to show the coils wired in series, because each coil has a resistance of roughly .8ohms, and the stock coils have a resistance of roughly 2ohms. With two cbr coils in series you get 1.6 ohms.

Also, i'm sure that these are not capacitive discharge coils, because according to PE-ltd, when you convert a yamaha r6 engine for use with their system, they recommend using 2001-2003 F4i coils, or accel 140403 coils. If you look on summit racing, accel 140403 coils are for NON-CDI applications.

So back to the original question... who wants to try this and let me know if it works? I'm hoping this will solve my crappy rain performance. Also since there is a very short distance between the coil and the spark plug, these should give a slight increase in performance... but no one will know until they try! (Also I have no money right now, otherwise I would be all over this!)
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Re: coil over plug idea...

Post by reelrazor »

The early Denso automtive C-O-P's were inductive as well. With the knowledge of which Japanese cars used them, they should be found VERY cheaply through a junkyard/dismantler. I KNOW that a 97 corolla has C-O-P like coil sticks but they are powered by a coil pack IN the distributor ala GM's HEI....so that's ONE that won't work.....


It's something I have been toying with for quite some time, but haven't gotten around to doing. Prolly this winter.
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Re: coil over plug idea...

Post by match417 »

Something I've recently learned just in researching the CDI and TCI systems that I thought I would add in. TCI is mainly used on carbureted motorcycle because it delivers a hotter spark at low rpm(crank rpm), which is great for us on a cold start. Injected bikes mainly have CDI systems, since they are injected a cold start is easier even with the spark not being as hot as it is on a TCI setup at crank rpms. I have seen CDI setups on carbureted bikes, it just requires more fine tuning in order to work properly. With that said, I believe it would be hard for us to modify our bikes to run a CDI system instead of the TCI system it was designed to run with. I know some people have expressed an interest in putting a CDI setup on our bikes, and I would love to see it running if they can get it to work, but I don't think it's worth all of the effort. I did find a few weeks ago that bosch makes a TCI coil over plug, I haven't looked much into it, but that might be a nice mod for someone to do.
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Re: coil over plug idea...

Post by reelrazor »

match417 wrote:Something I've recently learned just in researching the CDI and TCI systems that I thought I would add in. TCI is mainly used on carbureted motorcycle because it delivers a hotter spark at low rpm(crank rpm), which is great for us on a cold start. Injected bikes mainly have CDI systems, since they are injected a cold start is easier even with the spark not being as hot as it is on a TCI setup at crank rpms. I have seen CDI setups on carbureted bikes, it just requires more fine tuning in order to work properly. With that said, I believe it would be hard for us to modify our bikes to run a CDI system instead of the TCI system it was designed to run with. I know some people have expressed an interest in putting a CDI setup on our bikes, and I would love to see it running if they can get it to work, but I don't think it's worth all of the effort. I did find a few weeks ago that bosch makes a TCI coil over plug, I haven't looked much into it, but that might be a nice mod for someone to do.

There are plenty of bike (and snowmobile) engines that are carbureted AND have CDI systems. Most carbureted sleds are ROPE START and have to be willing start at -20°f or at +40f.

CDI is more expensive to produce and TCI will do fine for most applications. THe FZR's had to hit a price point.....nothing justified the extra cost of CDI


The modification for our bikes to use CDI would involve nothing more than a different set of coils, a CDI compatible pickup coil , and the biggie...a CDI unit that was properly tailored for our use.
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Re: coil over plug idea...

Post by yamaha_george »

reelrazor wrote:
match417 wrote:Something I've recently learned just in researching the CDI and TCI systems that I thought I would add in. TCI is mainly used on carbureted motorcycle because it delivers a hotter spark at low rpm(crank rpm), which is great for us on a cold start. Injected bikes mainly have CDI systems, since they are injected a cold start is easier even with the spark not being as hot as it is on a TCI setup at crank rpms. I have seen CDI setups on carbureted bikes, it just requires more fine tuning in order to work properly. With that said, I believe it would be hard for us to modify our bikes to run a CDI system instead of the TCI system it was designed to run with. I know some people have expressed an interest in putting a CDI setup on our bikes, and I would love to see it running if they can get it to work, but I don't think it's worth all of the effort. I did find a few weeks ago that bosch makes a TCI coil over plug, I haven't looked much into it, but that might be a nice mod for someone to do.

There are plenty of bike (and snowmobile) engines that are carbureted AND have CDI systems. Most carbureted sleds are ROPE START and have to be willing start at -20°f or at +40f.

CDI is more expensive to produce and TCI will do fine for most applications. THe FZR's had to hit a price point.....nothing justified the extra cost of CDI

That being the case why not use a programmable ignition of our own design with C-O-P,?
seems the qusetion we should be answering since Mr Yamaha gave us TCI which finding a C-O-P solution is difficult and quiet a few people are interested in mappable ignitions lets ee what we can mate .......................


The modification for our bikes to use CDI would involve nothing more than a different set of coils, a CDI compatible pickup coil , and the biggie...a CDI unit that was properly tailored for our use.[/quote]
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