Disappointed with new SS Lines/R6s MC/Blue Dots

[Burtonrider10022]

I must say, overall, I am very disappointed with my new Spiegler SS Lines, '08 R6s Master Cylinder, and '08 R^s Blue Dots. They are relatively "squishy" and I feel like my stock FZR setup was actually BETTER and the new setup.

The calipers were cleaned thoroughly, but not rebuilt. Seller claimed only 8k miles on the bike. Stock R6s pads and whatever stock/OE equivilent FZR rotors. I bled the lines a lot IMO, and no air bubbles come out. MC seemed to be making pretty good pressure when testing it. I "back bled" the lines per the wiki write up, but now searching the R6 forums I see some slightly conflicting/confusing info:

The wiki states:

pump (squeeze over and over) your brake lever 4 or 5 times, then squeeze the lever hard and open and close the top banjo bolt near the master cylinder, DO NOT let go of the brake lever with the banjo bolt or bleed screws open! Open and close it quickly, fluid squirts out, this is normal. Repeat this 3 or 4 times. Then do the same thing for the bleed screws at the calipers,

but then the R6 forum says to:

Loosen the bleeder screw with the wrench, pull the brake lever all the way back to the grip, tighten the bleeder screw, and release the brake lever.

http://www.r6-forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160449



It seems like most of what I am reading says to open bleed screw, squeeze lever and hold, close screw, release lever and repeat. I intend to try this when I get home, but will it make a difference or is pump, squeeze, hold, open, close, release accomplishing the same task?

[GreyImport]

This is how Ill be doing mine...(cant remember which forum posting I got this from!)

FRONT Brake System Bleeding

Remove the front master cylinder reservoir cap. You must keep the reservoir full of fluid during all bleeding operations to prevent air from re-entering the system.
Make sure all banjo bolts are tight and that the bleed screws are tight.
Loosen one hose on the front caliper and remove it.
Pinch banjo fitting on the end of this loose hose with you thumb and index finger and pump the brake lever slowly until fluid squirts out between your fingers. (this is priming the master cylinder)
Re-install the brake hose and tighten the banjo bolt.
Pump the brake lever and watch in the reservoir for air bubbles. Air bubbles coming up from the master cylinder means that the brake hoses and calipers are filling with fluid.
After pumping the brake lever for what seems like eternity you should feel the brake lever getting stiffer as if your brakes are working but are spongy.
Now you have to bleed the air out of the calipers.
With the brake lever released or in the not applied position, open a bleed screw on one caliper.
Then slowly press the brake lever watching the fluid that comes out of the bleed screw, and hold the brake lever.
With the brake lever pressed all the way tighten the bleed screw.
Slowly release the brake lever.
Continue until no air bubbles come out of the bleed screws and repeat for any remaining bleed screws.
The brake lever should have a solid feel to now and if not continue pumping and bleeding until you do. Check and add fluid if necessary and re-install the reservoir cover.
After a few days of riding bleed the calipers again to assure that all air is out.

[Burtonrider10022]

I saw that too actually. FWIW, it does look like my issue might be that I was holding lever, then open bleed screw, retighten, release lever. SO, I will try it the other way later on today.

And GreyImport, do yourself a favor and follow the "back bleeding" portion in the wiki (or several other bike sites). It took me around 7 minutes to "prime" the entire system full of fluid and I barely had to pump the handle at all. My error appears to be either mechanical or user error at fine tuning the bleed.

[SouthendChris]

I use a syringe and fill the system from the bleed nipples on the calipers. once there's a bit of pressure at the lever I bleed them with the syringe sucking fluid out. Still have to pump the lever every now and then. Remember that the 4 pot calipers have plenty of nooks and crannys inside them where air bubbles can be trapped. Dismount the caliper and turn it upside down and around a few times then bolt it back up. Hopefully that shifts air upwards. After doing that with both calipers you can then clamp the brake lever halfway back overnight to let the bubbles rise to the reservoir.

Either way - good luck!!!

I am running a 2000 YZF-R1 front end inc blue spots with a 2008 yam/brembo radial m/cyl on my 3TJ FZR400.

Chris

[reelrazor]

Strap the lever to the bar and leave it overnight.

[fzrbrandon]

Strap the lever to the bar and leave it overnight.

+1

Burtonrider,

Don't be disappointed in the system. It's a good set-up. Hell, the stock set-up is enough to stand the bike up on the front wheel. But I digress...

If it's still squishy, there is still air in the system. Be patient, it takes time to get it all out.

[pefrey]

If you are not satisfied something is amiss. I suspect air in the system. Strapping the brake lever to the bar is a good method.

Also, the method where you squeeze the lever, open the bleed valve, and close the bleed vavle before the lever hits the bar always works for me. Do not leave the bleed valve open after the lever hits the bar. The point is that you want constant pressure leaving the system.

Be careful not to over torque the bleed valve. Also, does the MC have a bleed valve?

[Burtonrider10022]

Strap the lever to the bar and leave it overnight.

Hmm... I did notice that it seemed a little more firm today after sitting. I'll try this.

Strap the lever to the bar and leave it overnight.

+1

Burtonrider,

Don't be disappointed in the system. It's a good set-up. Hell, the stock set-up is enough to stand the bike up on the front wheel. But I digress...

If it's still squishy, there is still air in the system. Be patient, it takes time to get it all out.

My stockers couldn't really manage that, and neither can these. After some more bleeding with the "new" meathod, I found some air at the banjo bolt on the MC so I think the air may have worked its way up over time. Also, could you possibly clarify that in the wiki? or am I the only moron who couldn't figure it out

If you are not satisfied something is amiss. I suspect air in the system. Strapping the brake lever to the bar is a good method.

Also, the method where you squeeze the lever, open the bleed valve, and close the bleed vavle before the lever hits the bar always works for me. Do not leave the bleed valve open after the lever hits the bar. The point is that you want constant pressure leaving the system.

Be careful not to over torque the bleed valve. Also, does the MC have a bleed valve?

I am only hand tightening the bleed screw with a small wrench. I haven't seen, nor really checked for, a propper torque value. Also, no bleed screw on the MC, but I HAVE been bleeding from the banjo bolt.




Overall, after some more bleeding today the brakes are at least up to a point where I feel the bike is driveable. Considering that I followed the instructions carefully for "back bleeding" I did not anticipate much difficulty while bleeding. Hopefully more bleeding is the answer, because $200 for slightly less than old stock performance would suck.

[reelrazor]

It's a bitch trying to get air to move straight down, no doubt about it.

I am a miti-vac man myself. That works even better if a bleed screw is available at the MC and you can pull fluid UP the system.

The strapping the lever down deal works like this: the pressure holds check valves open. The air (which is likely many tiny bubbles) consolidates and rises slowly to the high point(hopefully the MC reservoir-make sure the forks are turned left on the sidestand so that the MC is as high as it can be).

It is also possible to dismount the calipers and suspend them above the MC and bleed that way (use pieces of bar stock or such to keep the pads apart).

Now, after all this is said and done, you will need to bed the pads into your rotors (whether new or 'old' pads that were already in the calipers-and who knows what the caliper's previous owner used for brake pads??!!) before you get great braking. This is just normal for unbedded pads.

I like to scuff new pads up with 120 grit, and THOUROUGHLY clean the rotors{Bra-Kleen-use a whole can} BEFORE the 'new' pads touch them.

bed them by USING them, increasingly hard by stopping hard repeatedly from 20mph....30 mph....40mph......80mph......100mph...in a completely controlled situation of course ( I like the back truck/loading lot at the local walmart)

[fzrbrandon]

Hell, the stock set-up is enough to stand the bike up on the front wheel.

My stockers couldn't really manage that, and neither can these.

Trust me, the system is capable of it. I can get the rear tire coming off the ground under very hard braking on my track bike. That's a 400 so it weighs a little less but the rotors are also smaller. That's with a more or less stock front brake system (other than SS lines). Another thing to consider, in my case, is that the springs in that bike are a little stiffer so the front suspension doesn't absorb the dive quite as quickly. Nevertheless, I can get the rear tire on my street bike pretty light as well when I want to.

I actually had a tech inspection guy comment to me that my front brake was the best he had felt in a long time. That's not to brag but merely to illustrate the point that, if the stock system is bled correctly, it is more than up to the task that it's been given.

Keep at it. It'll get there.

[pefrey]

Realrazor brings up a good point. Did you change pads? It's always a good idea to clean the surface of your rotors with a scotchbrite pad or something (some people use 1,000 or 1,400 grit sandpaper). Each pad leaves material on the rotors. Sometimes when you change pads the new material is incompatible with the old and you get lousy performance. If you did change pads, hit your new pads with a little sandpaper after you scotchbrite your rotors in order to remove any material that could have deposited on them.

[pefrey]

And what fzrbrandon said. When I made the switch I humped my gas tank the first time I touched the brakes. I was not going fast and I was not expecting such a huge difference.

Also, I have know people (myself included) who have tapped the calipers and the master cylinder with a rubber mallet in order to jar loose any trapped air bubbles.

[Freestyle72]

BTW just to get it straight. This is how to bleed brakes its easy as f*ck.

- Pull off the Master Cyl resevoir cover
- Pull the brake lever tight and do not let go
- Open the bleeder screw, and fluid will squirt out
- Promptly close the bleeder screw
- Let go of the lever
- Start at step two again making sure to alternate between calipers.
- Keep repeating until brake pull gives a very firm feeling.

[Burtonrider10022]

BTW just to get it straight. This is how to bleed brakes its easy as f*ck.

- Pull off the Master Cyl resevoir cover
- Pull the brake lever tight and do not let go
- Open the bleeder screw, and fluid will squirt out
- Promptly close the bleeder screw
- Let go of the lever
- Start at step two again making sure to alternate between calipers.
- Keep repeating until brake pull gives a very firm feeling.

This appears to be up for debate. Many write ups say to open bleed screw, THEN squeeze lever and hold, tighten bleen screw, release lever. My guess is that that detail doesn't really matter. And either way, I'm doing that, (both ways) and neither really worked too well.



Like I said, they are a little better now, I have been working too much to have a chance to get at them again. Lever is strapped to the bar for now per RR's suggestion. I plan on taking off the calipers and flipping them over above the master next chance I get. At that time the pads will be scuffed and rotor thoroughly cleaned. None of these suggestions were in ANY of the write ups I read. I'm sure those suggestions will work, because mechanically everything is in great shape.

Thanks for all the help guys!

[Freestyle72]

The only time I haven't been able to bleed a brake system with this method is when I had a damaged master cylinder. So if you are 100% sure your master cylinder is functional as a final resort you can disconnect everything and reconnect and try bleeding from fresh. I had the R6 blue pots with R6 master and galfer front brake rotors and SS lines and honestly I'd say it easily had as much stopping power as my 05 ZX6R stock braking system with SS lines.

EDIT:

Also careful about leaving the lever strapped, some people believe that this has little benefit and can possibly damage/stretch the master cylinder's seals by applying continuous pressure for such a long duration. I don't know if this arguement holds water, I am just making you aware.