FZRSupport: the FZROnline Archive

i just did a dynojet stage 1 jet kit now my bike wont start getting spark any ideas?

Ok there's a couple things wrong here. First, we need much more information beyond "it won't start." Second, are you sure you put the proper jets in the correct places. If my memory serves, the pilot and main jets have the same threading. It's entirely possible that you mixed the two up.

ok well i replaced the jet to the left that said 106 to 118 cause i have pod filters and a no baffle exhaust i replaced the needles the 106 was on the left the was a none marked above it and the pilot in the tube i honestly have no idea on what to do now. like it turns over it just wont fire.

it needed jetted i had the pods on before but it sounded like i hit rev limiter at 6500rpm i pumped the jets from 106 to 118 and the needles to 5th from top on dyno jet kit now it wont start it ran without the tubes to stock box

Pods can be a b*tch to get right. I used the velocity stack idea on my ATV and it works great.

As far as not starting, make sure you have all of the fuel parts working properly (pump, fuel valve to "on"). The Dynojet kit shouldn't affect the idle, but only the lower mid to WOT. Pull your plugs to see if there is even fuel on them.

Nik wrote:Hi,
seems Y-Geo's write up on how to install pods WITHOUT re-jetting went un read, by you at least., suggest you read it up and follow the advice and it should all work very nicely (mine does :-}

That pod tuning how-to does not describe how to run pods without rejetting. In fact, the author of the piece states that he's running 110s. I'm presuming they are Mikunis and, if so, are one step up from stock. Small upsize yes, but an upsize nonetheless. Judging by his pilot screws only being 2 1/2 turns out (3 is stock), I'm guessing he's at a fairly low altitude so it seems logical that 110s (by my source, roughly equal to DJ's 118s) would work for him. Anyway, the whole point of this how-to is to regain (allegedly) the low to mid-range torque that is typically lost when running pods by extending the length of the intake tract - Not to overcome any type of outright barrier which presents itself from improper tuning. I'm not entirely convinced that the solution is this simple. However, I may have to try it out firsthand with the YZF motor so as to not have to muck with the airbox fitting in the 400 frame. I digress...

Nik wrote: "the bike sounded like it hit the limiter," is why pods without the tubes do not work properly !

I have to disagree here. If I'm understanding your post correctly, you're saying that in order for the bike to rev past 6500, you have to have the intake runners in place? My 600 had pods on it when I bought it and that thing had NO problem revving all the way to redline. The bike was fairly anemic until the tach swung up to 9K. At that point however, she screamed like a banshee and got the hell out of Dodge in a hurry. So regarding the OP's "brick wall"...there's something else going on there. The bike not wanting to rev high is a typical symptom of the charging system not working properly (aside from a couple other possibilities - clogged main jets (fuel and/or air), main and starter jets being inadvertantly swapped, ???.)

Nik wrote: you may need to go back to the original jets with pods & tubes as it is now so rich through out the carbs range that it may foul the plugs

He said he went from 106 to 118 on the mains. Since Mikuni does not have a 106 size main jet (that I'm aware of), I'm assuming he's referring to Dyno Jets. In that case, DJ's 106 mains are roughly equivalent to Mikuni's 100s (stock is 107.5)! There is no way he should be running jets that small with pods - especially in Florida (which is pretty much AT sea level). I'm running 118s in my bike with the airbox and that's at an elevation which is considerably higher than the OP's locale. By comparison, my bike had Mikuni 135s in it with the pods (which would be roughly equivalent to DJ's 144s - probably a bit overkill).
Anyway, I'm guessing that pods + 100 main jets + an exhaust with no baffle = replacing a motor a lot sooner than planned.

F,

As Darrin mentioned, go through all the basic stuff and make sure everything's in order. Check the fuel delivery system to make sure nothing's clogged (filter, pipes inside the tank), pull the plugs and make sure you're getting spark, check that your plug boots are screwed securely onto the wires, check your charging system. If the bike has chronic trouble starting, maybe check the valve lash? How about a compression check? Kind of reaching here and if the bike started fine before doing the jet kit swap, these are probably not issues (worth checking anyways though on these old bikes). Are the main and starter jets in their proper places? Check Darrin's carb photos to see which go where. Are your float heights WAY out of whack (inadvertantly from carb disassembly)? They should be around 22mm - 24mm (ymmv). This is all really simple stuff that can be checked in an afternoon so give it a go a report back with your findings.

I thought I might be opening up a can of worms here...

yamaha_george wrote: Brandon,
Your comments are a little off the mark. Nik is quoting from his experience (I know because I was there) as his bike was also podded and and i would say coughed along rather than ran cleanly. At 6-7k rpm it would hit the wall stutter/cough/ clear its "throat" and then scream from 9-10k onward.

The hole at 6-7k is caused by the fact that the flat inner face of the K&N causes "reflections" which disturb the air flow, ie the inlet tract has been shortened by the filters end cap

I don't think my comments were off mark at all. I responded to specific comments that Nik made. The only thing that was off-topic was my skepticism of the intake runners being the solution to make the bike easily tuneable with pods (hence my digression). For the record, I did NOT say it wouldn't work at all. In fact, I said that I might even try it just to prove or disprove it to myself. I'm not claiming to be an expert on the subject but I just think there's more to it than extending the intake tracts. I'm an audio engineer and a drummer so the reason for my skepticism is that I have some understanding of how frequency waves work and how the size of an acoustic chamber (of any kind - airbox, drum, beer bottle...) has a direct effect on how the frequencey waves inside the chamber behave (not to mention the direction and speed the waves are travelling). Those airboxes have a specific internal shape and the air flows in a particular way so I just think the solution is a little more complicated than what's being proposed. Again - I'm not an expert but I'm also not talking out of my posterior (I hope I'm not coming that way). If there is more first-hand anecdotal evidence of this working really well, I'd love to hear it because I'd really like to avoid having to deal with the airbox if I go ahead with my YZF / 400 hybrid.

My bike, although the power was somewhat weak until 9k'ish, never stumbled, coughed, burped, farted, vomited, or otherwise. It was simply down on torque / power - that is, until it hit around 9k. At that point, the power band made a noticeable ramp-up. It never felt like something somehow broke loose and got it's act together. That's my limited experience.

yamaha_george wrote: As for "allegedly" both Nik & I made a bucket of money back in the late70's & early '80's with fri/sat night street dragging and the gambling that took place using various bike I prepared for he and I to ride.

Nik paid for his dental practice and I my estate with just the ext tube trick (and other bits & pieces :-}

As for Nik's advice to go back to scratch with the original jets in the original PO statement he said the bike ran poorly and after jetting not at all. Logic suggests it is better to go to something that works even very poorly than to tune an engine that is not actually firing (That would be a neat trick).

As for Jet sizes not being standard neither Nik nor myself have US spec bikes so the fact the PO bikes Previous owner had changed jets would be unknown to us both being "off shore".
As for the HOW-To original author going up a size on jets that is what made his bike work where he is., from 30 years of doing this nonsense I have found that the increased air flow actually make the carb work near to its optimum and that in 90% of the cases I had to DROP a jet size on main and lean the needle a tad.

I'm not questioning anybody's experience here. I simply responded to comments that seemed counter-intuitive to me. Does it make sense to you that the bike should run fine with pods and jets that are smaller than stock (WITH a higher flowing exhaust)? I know you said that bikes in other parts of the world may have different specs than the U.S. models but I think, on average, the atmospheric conditions are even enough around the world for Yamaha to justify not putting different sized jets in the FZR600 depending on which market it's going to. Besides, I even mentioned that the author of the pod how-to is probably able to run the 110s with pods due to being at a much lower altitude. That, along with the pilot screws being where they are, is a logical deduction. Hence, my comments regarding this point.

yamaha_george wrote: Nik like myself will not give advice unless it is from our OWN experience which as I said he has known what I do since he first pulled my eldest kids tooth as his first patient fresh out of Dental school some 30+ years ago.( Nik, sorry to give your age away LoL)

as for experiences with anything YMMV

I sincerely try to live by this mantra as well. However, in some cases, it's acceptable to use some logical deduction and related (although not direct) experience to come to some conclusion. If the conclusion is wrong, it will at least have sparked a discussion which hopefully can benefit everyone.

My apologies if I ruffled any feathers. LOL!

Nik wrote:" after 30 odd years of doing this I am satisfied it works" if that is not good enough "If there is more first-hand anecdotal evidence of this working really well" then basically Y-G & I are agreed we are wasting our time on this thread.

Our way or the highway? I think you'll find plenty of examples of people on these forums who use pods without tubes/stacks and achieve their performance goal. I respect experience, but I also respect those who find new ways to deal with old problems.

For example, there are numerous accounts of people using Flo-Commanders and having smoothness throughout the RPM range with pods.

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It seems that there have been additional comments regarding the issues arising here and some have been deleted.

Let me say this - EVERYONE's opinion is important - right, wrong or indifferent. The benefit must be for the original poster.

ok the dipshit from the motorcycle store that worked on my bike had the fuel mix screw out so far it was just pouring in the motor and now i have 118s in again tweeked the needles every which way and did the same to 112s and it got a little better on 112s and on 118 it still does it., i am clueless now

Did you try the velocity stack idea that George and Nik presented from their extensive experience? http://fzronline.com/wiki/doku.php?id=pod-tuning

The thing is unless you're really into working on carbs and have a lot of experience working with them, pods will take forever to get right across the entire RPM range.

thats just the part the stock box uses to mount to the carbs right?

Before we go any further, did you check the charging system (battery, stator, VR/R)? You mentioned in one of your first posts that the bike felt like it hit a brick wall. These bikes are known to break apart in the upper rev range if the charging system is not functioning properly. Test these components. It's not hard, all you need is a multimeter, and the procedures are outlined in the manual. If the electrical checks out, move onto the carb stuff.

Bear with me while I go out on a limb here...

If you have an airbox, I might even suggest going back to that so you have a well-known baseline to work with. From there, you can start changing stuff up (you can still use the jet kit you currently have - just change jet sizes).

FWIW, here's my set-up which seems to work very well:

Airbox w/ K&N filter
Micron full exhaust
Mains - DJ118 (per DJ instructions)
All other jets - stock (49-state)
Needles - DJ (5th position from the top - per DJ instructions)
Pilot screws - 3 1/2 turns out
Float height - 24mm
Needle jets - Factory Pro

Here's a link to DJ's instruction sheet for the kit install (judging by the sizes you've mentioned, I assume you have #4129). You really should be able to follow the instructions to the letter and achieve decent results (again - assuming the rest of the bike is function properly - carbs CLEAN, compression, valves adjusted, charging system, etc.). The instructions include set-up for pods also:

http://www.dynojet.com/pdf/4129.pdf

You'll notice that, for pods, DJ recommends their 130 main jets with an aftermarket exhaust. This is why I stated in an earlier post that it doesn't seem right that you would be running 118s (let alone 112s). I'm running 118s and with an airbox (which is what they recommend) so it seemed odd to me.

If you're going to pursue trying to get the pods to work for you, try to follow the guidelines in the instructions. This should give you a decent starting point. The tuning will still require a decent amount of fiddling to get right (i.e., nowhere near as straight-forward as it is with an airbox). However, as George, Nik, and Darrin have suggested, give the intake runner mod a shot and let us know if that helps.

***OPINION ALERT*** I know some people will disagree here but there's really not much of a benefit to be had with pods on the street. If you're a racer or even a casual track rider, that's a different story as there are definitely gains to be made in the top 1/4 or so of the rev range with that set-up (usually at the expense of the low - midrange). However, If you've never ridden a properly tuned (nothing fancy) FZR600 with an airbox, I think you'd be very pleasantly surprised by it's performance and probably wouldn't want to mess with it. Besides that, tuning with the airbox is ridiculously easy (assuming the motor, electrical, etc. are all in good shape). I'm not trying to persuade you of anything. Rather, I'm just throwing it out there as food for thought.

Now get to work and keep us posted!

floridafzr600 wrote:thats just the part the stock box uses to mount to the carbs right?

Yes. That is what the how-to is referring to. Read it and it should be apparent to you.

floridafzr600 wrote:thats just the part the stock box uses to mount to the carbs right?

fzrbrandon wrote:The tuning will still require a decent amount of fiddling to get right (i.e., nowhere near as straight-forward as it is with an airbox). However, as George, Nik, and Darrin have suggested, give the intake runner mod a shot and let us know if that helps.

Using the airbox's rubber boots (stacks) with pods or using the complete airbox is really the same thing. The only difference would be individual filters on each carb instead of one larger single one shared by all.

I used the stock airbox with a K&N filter, DJ130 mains, V&H Supersport exhaust and the bike never had more power or ran better. It took a lot of tuning, testing, etc..., but that's to be expected.

Good luck!

Damn it! I accidently edited your post when I tried to reply to it! Anyway... Let's try this again.

ragedigital wrote:

floridafzr600 wrote:thats just the part the stock box uses to mount to the carbs right?

fzrbrandon wrote:The tuning will still require a decent amount of fiddling to get right (i.e., nowhere near as straight-forward as it is with an airbox). However, as George, Nik, and Darrin have suggested, give the intake runner mod a shot and let us know if that helps.

Using the airbox's rubber boots (stacks) with pods or using the complete airbox is really the same thing. The only difference would be individual filters on each carb instead of one larger single one shared by all.

I used the stock airbox with a K&N filter, DJ130 mains, V&H Supersport exhaust and the bike never had more power or ran better. It took a lot of tuning, testing, etc..., but that's to be expected.

Good luck!

I don't know. I think there's someing to be said about the enclosed space of the airbox and the fact that it is essentially a tuned chamber as opposed to an uncontrolled, wide open space (such as it is under the tank cover). I'm seriously wishing I didn't sell my pods now because I'd like to have been to try this on the "YZF motor-in-FZR400 frame" project (if it ever gets off the ground).