coil over plug idea...

[match417]

ok, so let me know what you guys think about this..i have an idea for something i might do and i've been looking at wiring diagrams to see if it is possible to wire it this way, plus i need to get my stock coils out of the way for the YZF600 airbox fit. The first picture shows how the 03 - 05 R6 has their coils set up. The second picture is the 99 - 02, and the last picture is the FZR. I wish i had a way to test to see how much the coils pulled before connecting it to my CDI. Here is my idea though, snip the wires off that go into our stock coils, and wire in each of the wires to the coil-over-plug it should go to for that cylinder, then wire the other wire to ground. The 03 - 05 is more how i would set up mine, but since there are 3 wires for the ignition coming from the CDI on the FZR, one has to be split (red/white) so it can go to the two coils. It is the exact same setup as our bikes, but saves space, and looks a little different. The wiring diagram in the FZR book actually shows 4 separate coils, but we know that there are two coils in one. I just don't want to fry my CDI if the R6 coil pulls more juice. I would try this if i had an extra CDI, anyone want to donate one to a worthy cause? I can trade this guy some intercooler piping for some 02 wires and plugs, i just don't want to have something else to fix on my bike. And can i check the coils resistance with an ohm meter to compare them? The reason i want to go with 99 - 02 c.o.p.s...based off of the wiring diag below, two cops run off of one wire, so two cops fire at the same time and one wastes a spark every time because of when it fires. Since one ignition wire feeds two cops, my best bet is going with 99 - 02 cops because the 03 - 05 cops might be hotter and pull more juice since there is a wire from the ECU for each cop, maybe not, btut i want to be safe.

[DonTZ125]

Not sure if this is a case of "Great minds think alike", or "Fools rarely differ" , but I posted this very idea on the FZR Forum earlier today. I've done some more reading, though, and just edited my post to add the following:

"Further research - OK, the R6s (all years) are CDI, not TCI; the coil resistances are 0.58ohm / 9.6kohm vs 2.8ohm / 15kohm for the FZR250R (2.0 / 12k on the 400). Straight rewiring will lead rapidly to a very dead TCI box. Could a 2.2ohm resistor be wired in series with the primary coil(s) (parallel), or a 1ohm resister in series with 2 coils in series?"

Match417 - the FZR and YZF are TCI, not CDI. A common mistake in terminology; I only learned the diff myself a few months back. They ain't the same, and the coils are different. Wire a CDI up like a TCI, and you'll fry it almost instantly; wire a TCI up like a CDI, and nothing happens. Use CDI coils on a TCI, and you turn it into a toaster (and then, after a short time, just toast); use TCI coils on a CDI and ... well, not sure. It won't die, but it probably won't work as well as it should, either.


Comments, rude or otherwise?

[match417]

that is funny, i thought about doing it a while back with 03 - 05 r6 coils, but when i saw the wiring diagram i saw how much difference there was between the two, so i gave up the idea. then me and my friend went to look at buying this $100 02 R6 that had been gutted, everything was gone but the swingarm, frame, engine, harness/coils, and a few other little things, not worth the $100, but that made me think to look up the wiring of the coils on the 99 - 02 r6, and i saw that it seems doable as far as wiring is concerned.

it can be done though, I have an AEM C2DI (dual capacitive discharge igniter) that is lying around, 1) it is going in my car when i put my engine back in and 2) it is waaaay too much for the bike i think, but it is designed for stuff like this. Get an aftermarket CDI that doesn't produce as hot of a spark as the AEM, wire it in from the wires that go to the FZR coils from the CDI, then run that into the cops...that will cost you though, my C2DI was almost $300, but there are cheaper ones. And I've heard of the AEM igniter catching on fire in some instances, and i wouldn't want that on a bike...

[cad600]

If I'm not mistaken, the timing rotor has to match as well. This would mean that even if you hooked everything up correctly, the computer would not get the signal at the correct time to produce the charge to fire the coil.

Could be wrong though.

[reelrazor]

I looked pretty hard into this a while back.

There are only a couple aftermarket coil manus who make an "inductive type" pencil (c-o-p) coil. And, they don't give them away....cheapest I found being 280$ for a set of four.

And it is exactly as Don said....a 'CDI type' coil will fry our TCI units in short order.

Also, inductive (TCI) coils also vary not only in resistance, but also in the primary windings themselves....an inductive coil has full time battery voltage (DC) passing thru, with interruption of that power by the TCI unit triggering spark...so they are set up to have current in them full time. CDI coils ONLY have current in them when a firing pulse is called for (brief 200+ AC or DC depending on cdi box type).

There are automotive coils that aren't true 'pencil coils', but are coil OVER plug-with a small box of windings on top of a very short plug lead that will work for us....this might be a decent option.

The R6 also is NOT 'waste spark'...ours ARE. So, conversion to that ignition module would require flywheel modified to have four impulse generators (timing bumps)-with one being the reference impulse (usually longer than the other three) and subsequently balanced etc.

[DonTZ125]

The more I think about it, the more I think FZR TCI + R6 COP + inline resistor should work - at the very least, if it fails only the ignition stick dies (seen for US$40/set on R6 forums), not the $$$$ TCI box. The coil may or may not appreciate having the current flowing at all times, but the limiting resistor SHOULD (there's that word again...) keep the amps down to what the TCI expects on a regular basis anyway.

For the normal TCI system, 12v / 2.8 ohms = 4.28A normal flow per channel (1&4, 2&3); 300v (induced collapse voltage) / 2.8 ohms = 107A, for some tiny fraction of a second. For the CDI system, 300v (assumed) / 0.58 ohm = 517A for some fraction of a second. Like I said - the TCI won't care; it's only seeing what it sees with the stock coils. The COP won't mind the peak amps, it's less than what it sees from the CDI box. The only concern would be if the COP overheated from constant 51W heating. If the COPs were wired in parallel, the steady-state amps would be split in half.

I suggest a good arrangement, both from overheating and voltage drop perspectives, would be if each TCI channel drives two COPs wired in parallel, each in series with a 2.2 ohm resistor.

TCI-A------RES-----COP
|-----------RES-----COP <- really rough ASCII sketch

Adapting the R6 CDI to the FZR would be a nightmare. Not only do you have the multi-point timing wheel on the crank, you also have a camshaft position pickup - the crank pickup will tell you that cyl #1 is approaching TDC, but it can't tell you if that's on the compression or exhaust stroke.

[match417]

i'd say try the resistor idea. if it works..then it works. And a box of resistors is cheap. I don't have the $40 for coils and can't risk screwing up anything on my bike since it is my main transportation. Let us know what happens.

[DonTZ125]

Working on it... (it's always easier to talk about experiments on someone else's kit, isn't it? )

[match417]

cool, let us know how it goes, and i'm sure you're going to test how well it holds up at 10k rpm. And i would like to know how warm the coils get if you can check that too.

....oh crap i love acai..soooo good.

[R3TARD]

$100 02 R6 that had been gutted, everything was gone but the swingarm, frame, engine, harness/coils, and a few other little things, not worth the $100

DUDE, are you crazy the oil pan is worth 50, harness 70-100, I would have jumped all over it for 100 bucks

[DonTZ125]

cool, let us know how it goes, and i'm sure you're going to test how well it holds up at 10k rpm. And i would like to know how warm the coils get if you can check that too.

....oh crap i love acai..soooo good.

Ahhh... Ex-CUSE me - Note the bike. That's "test how well it holds up at EIGHTEEN k rpm", thank you...

"acai" ?

[match417]

$100 02 R6 that had been gutted, everything was gone but the swingarm, frame, engine, harness/coils, and a few other little things, not worth the $100

DUDE, are you crazy the oil pan is worth 50, harness 70-100, I would have jumped all over it for 100 bucks

I doubt the harness would sell, oil pan probably would. he didn't have papers, and he had it sitting on the edge of his house with nothing covering the intake ports, so rain and everything got inside the engine, me and my friend were thinking about it, and we probably would have broke even on it or made the $100 back and another $50, so we didn't see it as being worth the effort, plus if it was stolen and we get pulled over bringing it back..well..yeah.

[match417]

Ahhh... Ex-CUSE me - Note the bike. That's "test how well it holds up at EIGHTEEN k rpm", thank you...

"acai" ?

hah..nice.

There is a place walking distance from my house that sells acai bowls, acai is a brazilian berry that tastes really good. They mix the acai with chopped up bananas, organic granola, honey, and sometimes strawberries. It tastes amazing, and is really healthy, and since i'm a little sick, it's really good for you. Acai is kindof like raspberry, but it's purple, and i haven't actually seen what acai looks like when it's not mashed up like yogurt, so i don't know what it looks like, but it's amazing. Hippies that like organic stuff love the acai bowls place. I just finished eating a bowl..

[match417]

06/07 high rev r6 has TCI coil over plugs, we can use those, i have to look at the wiring diagram, i'll do that when i get back from work. But i'm worried that there may possibly be a type-o in wikipedia, i can't find anything on the R6S in wikipedia. As far as i know, the R6S is almost exactly what the 03 - 05 R6 was. I hope they are talking about the high rev, either way i'll look it up more when i get off work..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_YZF-R6

[match417]

ok, i just downloaded the wiring diagram for the 06/07 high rev r6, there is a difference between the two systems, but i believe this setup will work, BUT, the c.o.p.s (coil over plugs) are a bit taller than our plug wires, so they will stick out of the head more than the stock FZR plugs wires.

FZR600:
There are 3 signal wires coming from the cdi, one signal wire splits to two different coils, the other signal wires have no splits. They plug into the coils and the coils are grounded through the frame.

06/07 high rev:
There are 4 separate signal wires from the ECU that run straight to each separate coil. The c.o.p.s have a two prong plug, one wire is a red/black wire, this is a constant hot wire, the other wire is 1 of 4 different colored wires that run from the ECU, i'm not going to list the colors. The c.o.p.s are grounded through the spark plug.

I believe we can incorporate this coil into our system easier than any other coil over plug, we just need to split off of a fused hot wire, or run our own hot wire that switches off when the ignition key is turned off. This hot wire would have to run to each separate c.o.p. and the 3 signal wires (splitting one of course) will run to the high rev c.o.p. The CDI would send the signal to the c.o.p., and the signal would activate the hot wire to the spark plug for the spark, coil would be grounded through the spark plug, just like on the high rev.