Died while riding, wouldnt start back up

[kudjan89]

Well the plug was melted right at the Vrr, but where the connector comes from the stator to the plug under the tank was fine and I saw no un soldered connections. This is kind of puzzling me, because everything seems to be on the low side but it still melted the plug at the Vrr, I might try to cut the pigtail and solder in some new connectors and see what happens

[ramster]

And the stator resistances are... sorry but we aint mind readers

Usually a high resistance on the stator = dry solder joints, low resistance = windings that are shorting. Both conditions can an do = low AC output.

BTW the solder joints are on the actual stator (inside the stator cover)

[kudjan89]

i don't remember what the resistance was off hand right now, i will go back out to the garage later and retest it.

And i know the connections are behind the cover i had the whole stator out and looked it over

[ramster]

i don't remember what the resistance was off hand right now, i will go back out to the garage later and retest it.

And i know the connections are behind the cover i had the whole stator out and looked it over

Ok this is an old thread, (im not re-reading all the posts) from what I remember your a mechanic with little knowledge of electrical systems?

I'm a technician with quite a LOT of experience of electrical problems. My aim is to get you up and running ASAP. Ive also noticed you said your machine or something wasn't working. Go buy a multimeter for $5, then you may get a true readings I.E. the VAC output ohms e.t.c. It will be worth the $5 trust me on that. If you think im being harsh remember one thing. A workman is only as good as his tools.

[kudjan89]

Sorry if i came across as lashing out at you. I was not trying to be that way, but yes i am a technician and electrical has never been my strong point. Something about it just scrambles my brain.......but anyway the machine that was not working right was our battery load tester. I do have a nice fluke meter that i have been using to test everything, and i am going to ride it into work to do some more testing tomorrow. The VAC was 33.5 on one set of terminals, and 35 when i went to the other 2 white wires coming up to the VRR, which from what i have read is not high enough for the VRR to work properly. I am going to re-test the resistance through the stator in the morning because i can't remember if i tested it or not, if i did i cannot remember what i got, should have wrote this all down

I really do appreciate your help ramster, i want to get this bike going in tip top shape asap thank you
-Matt

[DonTZ125]

Matt, you mentioned taking 2 sets of readings. The 3 alternator wires actually offer 3 combinations - 1-2, 2-3, and 1-3. The actual minimum AC voltage is a matter of some debate; ramster often refers to a trouble-shooting chart that specifies 40-60vac, while ReelRazor has suggested 30-60vac. This really is something to be tested imperically - find a bike with 30vac across all 3 legs, a good battery, and a known-good VRR, then determine if the battery is being properly charged.

[kudjan89]

Well I was going off the top of my head trying to remember what the readings were. So I'm going to go through today and get the readings again, I did so much testing I can't exactly remember what all the readings were. Lol but I'll write them all down and post them later

[kudjan89]

Well I just took some more readings and now I'm getting different stuff

@ 3000 rpms I am getting 40. 7, 40.1, and 39.8 vac coming out of the stator and the resistance reading on the stator is .6, .6, and .5 ohms. I cut off the pigtail that was melted and re wired the vrr just to make sure it was getting proper contact, but at 3000 rpms I'm still only getting 11.7 v so I'm starting to believe it just the vrr that went bad. The vrr that is on the bike is the older style with the cooling fins on it, I'm going to get the r6 vrr that is always talked about and do the conversion there.

[ramster]

ramster often refers to a trouble-shooting chart that specifies 40-60vac, while ReelRazor has suggested 30-60vac. This really is something to be tested imperically - find a bike with 30vac across all 3 legs, a good battery, and a known-good VRR, then determine if the battery is being properly charged.

So true. That said I've never had to test my stator output, the VAC nor the resistance, corroded burnt connections were my problem.

I have a good battery and a known good 5 pin VRR (it kicks out 14.2ish V DC). Since the flow chart has been questioned, I'll test the VAC and resistances on my Stator, then report back

[ramster]

Well I just took some more readings and now I'm getting different stuff

@ 3000 rpms I am getting 40. 7, 40.1, and 39.8 vac coming out of the stator and the resistance reading on the stator is .6, .6, and .5 ohms. I cut off the pigtail that was melted and re wired the vrr just to make sure it was getting proper contact, but at 3000 rpms I'm still only getting 11.7 v so I'm starting to believe it just the vrr that went bad. The vrr that is on the bike is the older style with the cooling fins on it, I'm going to get the r6 vrr that is always talked about and do the conversion there.

It looks like Don may have been correct, your VRR may have failed low, possibly a failed diode on the rectifier? However you should also check the security and condition of the start relay connections.

In Dons words

It has been pointed out by one of our crustier members that, on the 600, the red 'hot' wire from the VRR to the Main (30A) Fuse to the battery actually stops off at the Starter Solenoid first. Check the security and condition of the main red wire at the starter solenoid.

If that connection is poor well... the VRR's ability to charge the battery is or will be seriously impaired. I.E. the VRR's DC output will struggle to get to the battery, said VRR will dump DC voltage to ground (the easiest path)

Ah i missed that

The vrr that is on the bike is the older style with the cooling fins on it,

Is it a 4 pin VRR with cooling fins? if so they are totally well.... SHIT worse that the OEM VRR with NO cooling fins, dump it asap

[ramster]

Some of you may know this some may not.

Even if a connection/contact looks clean it can still cause issues (resistance) believe me on that. On some metals you cant see the oxidation, If it looks clean clean it. I always always always use a watchmakers screwdriver to scrape the male terminals on every connection I inspect, then use Servisol Switch Cleaner on both the male and female connections, Including spade fuses or any other fuse.

[DonTZ125]

Starting to drift from the original topic ... This is the second VRR I've heard tell of where it is undercharging AND presents with a melted connector. There are two possible culprits for a "failed-low" VRR that I can think of, either a rectifying diode fails open (removing one phase winding from the output effort), or a regulating shunt SCR failing closed (the typical failure mode). The thought suddenly occurs that if one of the shunt SCRs has fried "ON", the entire output of that phase winding is being constantly recirculated, leading to both poor output AND dangerous heat buildup in the VRR, connector, and quite possibly the stator winding.

Ramster - remember the (brief) argument we had about a bad VRR damaging the stator? I agree that a failed-high VRR won't do it (one or more shunt SCRs has failed OPEN, or the control mechanism has failed, and all the output is being sent out of the stator into the rest of the bike), but I suddenly have to wonder about the effect of a fail-closed SCR!

[kudjan89]

Ya I am going to order up a 5 pin vrr and Im almost certain that should do the trick. I really appreciate all the help guys and I will let you know once it comes in and I get it on the bike, besides that not charging ing I have 0 issues with the bike it runs flawlessly, and it should it only has 9500 miles on it

[ramster]

Starting to drift from the original topic ... This is the second VRR I've heard tell of where it is undercharging AND presents with a melted connector. There are two possible culprits for a "failed-low" VRR that I can think of, either a rectifying diode fails open (removing one phase winding from the output effort), or a regulating shunt SCR failing closed (the typical failure mode). The thought suddenly occurs that if one of the shunt SCRs has fried "ON", the entire output of that phase winding is being constantly recirculated, leading to both poor output AND dangerous heat buildup in the VRR, connector, and quite possibly the stator winding.

Hmm. only two possible culprits? not poor connections, causing high resistance therefore heat?

Answer this, how does a total loss system not damage the stator. Think about it, to measure the stators VAC output do you not have the bike running with the VRR plug disconnected, will that also damage the stator windings?

So the rectifying diodes fail open? I think and know they usually fail closed. Every failed diode I've inspected was closed.

Ramster - remember the (brief) argument we had about a bad VRR damaging the stator? I agree that a failed-high VRR won't do it (one or more shunt SCRs has failed OPEN, or the control mechanism has failed, and all the output is being sent out of the stator into the rest of the bike), but I suddenly have to wonder about the effect of a fail-closed SCR!

Err nope, Does a SCR = "Silicon-controlled rectifier"?

[ramster]

besides that not charging ing I have 0 issues with the bike it runs flawlessly

Hmmm... The Topic/Subject

Died while riding, wouldnt start back up

Yeah I always say if my bike dies while riding that I have 0 issues with it NOT!!