Mega/Microsquirt ECUs

[yamaha_george]

(topic updated)

Without going out to the garage and stripping my engines further, does the 400 have a relevant timing/trigger wheel already in place, or is that something I'd have to look at sorting out too?

The chaps that do the microsquirt package I linked to specialise in triggerwheels.
http://trigger-wheels.com/store/contents/en-uk/d5.html
Just not sure where we could locate one

a

A,
The ones I have seen are tack welded to the flywheel


SEE this from the other thread re-programmable ignitions:-

http://www.tr1x.org/

[feef]

(topic updated)

Without going out to the garage and stripping my engines further, does the 400 have a relevant timing/trigger wheel already in place, or is that something I'd have to look at sorting out too?

The chaps that do the microsquirt package I linked to specialise in triggerwheels.
http://trigger-wheels.com/store/contents/en-uk/d5.html
Just not sure where we could locate one

a

A,
The ones I have seen are tack welded to the flywheel


SEE this from the other thread re-programmable ignitions:-

http://www.tr1x.org/

Looks like a bit of time on the lathe with a spare flywheel is in order.

Need to have a look at clearances inside the side covers, to work out just how proud the teeth can sit.

a

[DonTZ125]

I'm dying for someone with a) a running FZR and b) a silly-scope or MS2 to take some readings from the VR and stock crank through the attached filter circuit. If (as I expect and hope) it gives a pattern of positive pulses grouped three pair close-grouped and one pair well spread, we could send it to the MS programmers for development of a custom tooth reader, so fully stock FZRs could be 'Squirted...

[Freestyle72]

I dunno how to take those readings. But I would be happy to ride mine over if you want read them yourself. And as a side note what are the odds of the MS programmers taking action and making a custom reader? Is this something they normally do? Or is this something I could do if I grabbed a book and got reading?

[haro504]

with the signal timing pickup would it be posible to take all the teeth off and leave one to use a magnetic pick up like a camshaft sensor in a car or even a new custom gear that gos on the camshaft and put the sensor through the valve cover the ford escort has one of these and also have any of you thought of using a single injector throttle body and make a intake plenum like older gm vehicles i havent put to much research into these ideas they just came to me

[DonTZ125]

That's a helluva ride! =) The developers and I have been talking; the one fellow tried to get a usable reading with just the stock wheel and VR, but it degraded at higher revs (the MS uses zero-crossing for VR signals, not 'edges' like the Hall readers). I've been looking at the code, and I *think* I have an idea, but neither FZR nor MS are in running shape right now. There've been several inquiries about different engines that use the 'long tooth' wheel style in the past few months; I think they'd be quite willing to write the code.

Do you have a built MS / uS? The MS2/Extra code using TunerStudio has a tooth logger as part of its diagnostic package; simply recording 30sec at idle should be enough to offer proof-of-concept.

Haro - single-tooth triggers are not the most accurate, especially during hard acceleration. Also, while pure-cam triggers can be used, there is the risk of phase drift especially at higher rpms, due to slop and lash in the cam drive. A 4-1 crank wheel (4 positions, one missing) is pretty much the lowest acceptable level of precision for a 4-cyl; most of the car guys who add a trigger wheel are using 36-1. This is as much habit as anything; when the MS project started dealing with ignition, the EDIS module was a popular mod (still is), and it uses a 36-1 wheel. All good suggestions - keep reading, keep learning! I've been chasing this bugbear for over 2 years now...

Plenums - Most folks 'squirting bikes use multiple (individual) throttle bodies; I can't use the rack of R6 TBs I bought since they don't fit between the frame rails of my 250! I'll either be using a pair of TBs feeding two plenums (each in turn feeding two cyls), OR modify my stock carbs to accept the injectors.

[yamaha_george]

Guys ,
i can tell you that there is one hell of a lot of info on mini & mega squirts and also on just mega / micro jolts ( Ignition systems that are programmable ) on the net. So much so that you can spend and awful lot of time reading.
Pretty good stuff if you spend a lot of time in a hospital bed, the down side is that "thinking" whilst full of doctor's cocktails of drugs can leave you confused. :{

I did have some longish "conversations " with a couple of bike fanatics on both types of system. How ever the lap top they are on is now 4080 miles away locked in my safe. .
I will see what I can do about web sites & email addresses from my usb sticks of basic filing info.
BUT from our own archive:=
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5124&p

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5139&p=54000#p54000
A quote that i kept :-
Been busy with work,, anyway.. here goes.

The missing tooth must be precise to wherever you want it.  Weather it
be at 90deg, TDC, BDC, whatever.  But you MUST know where it is.  Its
designation is "tach tooth".  The skip is what gives you your RPM
reading.  The flat "pulse" is calculated against time, thus, you get RPM
output.  Ive set mine up TDC on cyl 1.  For each tooth you have a rising
edge, and a falling edge, and a pause in between.  Spark angle can be
deducted to 2deg without a problem.  With some good timing circuitry
(RTC / real time clock) you can "pause" the spark for 0.1ms, thus
getting 0.5deg accuracy.

Balance is not a real issue.  My crank has been done, with that housing
attached, so its all good.  As for welding.. less welds, to try and keep
the magnets strong, and as its just spinning with no friction, it goes
to 10kRPM without issues so far.  6 tack welds evenly spaced.  The ring
is 3mm thick sheet steel.

Its also possible to pick up off cam wheels, and with some effort,
optical sensors on most anything thats directly connected to the crank.
Honda VTR (RC51) has a crazy 5-2 setup.  It has 5 teeth, and 2 missing,
for a total of 7 places.  I read that megasquirt has that native now as
a setup option.  Ive never personally tried it, but suspect it would work.
4- +1 on toyotas also works.   4 teeth, evenly spaced, and an extra 5th
tooth at 45deg.  To bring the total count up to 5.  Thats ment to be
quite common too.  I highly suspect any tooth combo could be coded in
without huge amounts of effort, BUT the accuracy without a RTC could be
an issue.  As long as its NOT a delay tooth, like mine was, you should
be ok.  Delay tooth is longer than usual.  Not normal size.  Instead of
missing, its like a huge bridge making one big long tooth.  That has
huge issues and inherently sux.  But i do believe its possible, since
many yamahas have it.

FZR TPI system.  Yes its possible.  You need to get some sort of PIC
programmer, dump out a BIN file, and bingo.. you now have all the "code"
which was on the chip. You need to get some base settings tho.  You
would need an oscilloscope, breadboard, some electronics, etc..  You
could start "tricking" it into reacting.  Feed it an RPM signal (via
o-scope) and a TPS number, and log the output.  increase rpm pulses, see
what pins are changing.  Once you know what each part is doing, you
sohuld then be able to "talk" with it.

Its not an easy task, but it is quite possible.  Once a program is
written, you could simply "re-flash" a full ECU unit with your own
data.  Powercommanders do this some what.. They interupt the data and
add their own numbers.  If they were to make a "universal" replacement,
it would have that many damn wires and options...  Its why the piggy
back option is more "retail" friendly.
By making your own ECU from scratch, or megajolt / squirt / whatever..
You get much more freedom in how you do things.  You can easily add
extra features, and modify existing ones.  Only limitation is your skill
/ effort / imagination.

[feef]

I had a brief chat with one of the guys at http://trigger-wheels.com/store/contents/en-uk/d31.html and the trigger wheels they supply look very similar to the kind used on one of Yamaha_George's links.

I envisage skimming the flywheel a little in the lathe, getting a trigger wheel cut with a large internal diameter, and slipping it over the flywheel, tacking it in place with some welds. The fewer the better, as said.

Another, more complex option, would be to skim the flywheel part way along it's width, make a sleeve to replace the "lost" material which goes behind the trigger and is attached with a small flush screw, and a small keyway to locate the trigger wheel. This would mean it could be easily removed and replaced if needs be.

That way you're using a trigger wheel designed for the job, and not trying to make do with only a few sensor marks.

Accurate timing on an ECU and FI is far more important than with a carb, to the point that if you're only going on the relatively crude existing markings on the fly, then all you're really managing to do is replace the carbs with FI< and not actually take real advantage of the benefits FI can offer.

a

[yamaha_george]

A,
if you thin down the flywheel and add back the lost material with an L shaped flange you could make the trigger wheel adjustable for real accuracy & balance the wheel as well. rather like the early 2 stroke coil backing plate had slots to get the timing spot on ?

[feef]

That had crossed my mind. But with 36 teeth or more, it's only the missing tooth that has to be exact, and the rest if the timing adjustment can be done in software. Once the missing tooth is set properly, there's no requirement for movement.

a

[Freestyle72]

That's a helluva ride! =) The developers and I have been talking; the one fellow tried to get a usable reading with just the stock wheel and VR, but it degraded at higher revs (the MS uses zero-crossing for VR signals, not 'edges' like the Hall readers). I've been looking at the code, and I *think* I have an idea, but neither FZR nor MS are in running shape right now. There've been several inquiries about different engines that use the 'long tooth' wheel style in the past few months; I think they'd be quite willing to write the code.

Do you have a built MS / uS? The MS2/Extra code using TunerStudio has a tooth logger as part of its diagnostic package; simply recording 30sec at idle should be enough to offer proof-of-concept.

Haro - single-tooth triggers are not the most accurate, especially during hard acceleration. Also, while pure-cam triggers can be used, there is the risk of phase drift especially at higher rpms, due to slop and lash in the cam drive. A 4-1 crank wheel (4 positions, one missing) is pretty much the lowest acceptable level of precision for a 4-cyl; most of the car guys who add a trigger wheel are using 36-1. This is as much habit as anything; when the MS project started dealing with ignition, the EDIS module was a popular mod (still is), and it uses a 36-1 wheel. All good suggestions - keep reading, keep learning! I've been chasing this bugbear for over 2 years now...

Plenums - Most folks 'squirting bikes use multiple (individual) throttle bodies; I can't use the rack of R6 TBs I bought since they don't fit between the frame rails of my 250! I'll either be using a pair of TBs feeding two plenums (each in turn feeding two cyls), OR modify my stock carbs to accept the injectors.

I live in Milton. You live in Scarborough. Not that far. The offer still stands.

[Freestyle72]

I am still down to do this DonTZ since I am converting to fuel injection fuel only it might be helpful to get it running spark as well so I can get rid of my powerpak

[olie05]

I am still down to do this DonTZ since I am converting to fuel injection fuel only it might be helpful to get it running spark as well so I can get rid of my powerpak

If you just want to get it running fuel only, you can probably get away with triggering the megasquirt off the tach output from the TCI to the Tach. If the signal is a 4 pulse per 720 degrees, you should be in good shape for a signal to Megasquirt.

[Freestyle72]

That's the plan for now.

But if DonTZ can do his thing and ask the developers to make something to read the FZR trigger wheel that would be somethin' else. You could control fuel and timing that would do wonders for power developement. Also it will weigh less since the microsquirt is about 1/6th the size of the powerpak.

[DonTZ125]

Hi, folks.

Sorry for the dead air, health has been kind of sucking lately. A few interesting updates - one of the guys on the MSExtra site has developed a variant of the MS2/Extra code and adaptor circuit to read an older GSXR1000 with a 3-short 1-long wheel, exactly what the FZRs have. He actually has it running - fuel and spark - on the OEM trigger wheel!

I've been pushing pixels around on the screen to design a signal conditioning board that would turn the signal from our 3S+1L wheel into a "4 evenly spaced teeth + 1 extra tooth" signal that could be read by MS1/E, and standard B&G MS1, MS2 and MicroSquirt firmwares. It's ready to go to prototype, but I don't have the time, $$, or attention span to properly develop it right now...