660 not liking the choke

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ranmafan
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Re: 660 not liking the choke

Post by ranmafan »

dru86 wrote:Hey finally got a video of how mine starts, was waiting on a vacuum pump so i could replace the brick of a fuel pump that comes on the fzr. Did you end up sorting yours out? Here's the link to youtube
Hey,

Saw the video, thanks. Yeah, that idle sounds perfectly normal.

It's largely mitigated, but I still haven't figured out mine 100% yet (still very rough when on choke).

The only thing I never really played with is float levels. IIRC I've set them to 18mm last time, but I don't think I ever confirmed what the stock for 97+ YZF600 is.
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dru86
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Re: 660 not liking the choke

Post by dru86 »

Damn 18mm is high, I set mine 1mm lower to 12mm. Mine is measured with the carbs upside down and the float is fully compressing the needle. This could be what is causing the hard starting.
fzr660/400: fzr400 3en1 frame, 3en2 swinger, custom single seat subframe, fzr660 motor conversion, APE adjustable cam gears, full D&D 4-2-1 exhaust, falicon clutch basket, ignitech ignition, R6 front end with tz250 wheel, ohlins shock, storz steering damper, tzr250 rear wheel.

weighs 166kg wet (25kg lighter than my stock fzr600).
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ranmafan
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Re: 660 not liking the choke

Post by ranmafan »

dru86 wrote:Damn 18mm is high, I set mine 1mm lower to 12mm. Mine is measured with the carbs upside down and the float is fully compressing the needle. This could be what is causing the hard starting.
Yours are 95/96-something carbs, though, aren't they? Different main jet, too (I ended up with the stock 155, half a notch leaner than stock on the needles, and slightly richer than stock on the idle).

17mm is what I've seen quoted as stock for the YZF.... I also remember some guy, somewhere, complaining about YZF600's tending to be slightly rich (unusually so) from the factory...

I should get a chance to check it out today, while I'm waiting for my new paint to dry.
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dru86
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Re: 660 not liking the choke

Post by dru86 »

nope 97+ with the TPS.

I ended up having to go down to a 128dj main from the factory 155. The 97+ had ram air so needed the massive 155s, while the 95/96 that didn't only ran 115s. It makes sense that a 660 would use about 10% more than the non ram air yzf600. I'm running a fzr600 airbox with the yzf600 rubbers attached and the snorkel has been trimmed right back. I did a few dyno runs and alot of time riding around with a wideband O2 sensor up the exhaust checking these settings.
fzr660/400: fzr400 3en1 frame, 3en2 swinger, custom single seat subframe, fzr660 motor conversion, APE adjustable cam gears, full D&D 4-2-1 exhaust, falicon clutch basket, ignitech ignition, R6 front end with tz250 wheel, ohlins shock, storz steering damper, tzr250 rear wheel.

weighs 166kg wet (25kg lighter than my stock fzr600).
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ranmafan
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Re: 660 not liking the choke

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dru86 wrote:nope 97+ with the TPS.

I ended up having to go down to a 128dj main from the factory 155. The 97+ had ram air so needed the massive 155s, while the 95/96 that didn't only ran 115s. It makes sense that a 660 would use about 10% more than the non ram air yzf600. I'm running a fzr600 airbox with the yzf600 rubbers attached and the snorkel has been trimmed right back. I did a few dyno runs and alot of time riding around with a wideband O2 sensor up the exhaust checking these settings.
Interesting, much thanks for the info. #128 DJ should be same as #138 Keihin/FP, I believe. And, according to FP, a ~1.5mm change in float height should yield ~1 size change in mains... so with 12mm, it does actually make sense!

I'm using the FZR airbox (snorkel intact, K&N filter), too, but with FZR rubbers/stacks (a bit of a mess... but it works, fits under the tank cover and there are no leaks). The "ram air"/frame coolers are still on, as well, and it all goes out of a Kerker exhaust with stock headers.

By the way, going down to 17mm (floats *barely resting* on the spring) definitely made an improvement... I'm guessing 15-16mm ought to do the trick for me.
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dru86
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Re: 660 not liking the choke

Post by dru86 »

The difference in height to could be that I measure with the floats fully resting on the spring while yours are only just touching. The floats probably drop another 4mm or so from touching to compressed. So 17mm touching would be like 13mm compressed.
fzr660/400: fzr400 3en1 frame, 3en2 swinger, custom single seat subframe, fzr660 motor conversion, APE adjustable cam gears, full D&D 4-2-1 exhaust, falicon clutch basket, ignitech ignition, R6 front end with tz250 wheel, ohlins shock, storz steering damper, tzr250 rear wheel.

weighs 166kg wet (25kg lighter than my stock fzr600).
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ranmafan
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Re: 660 not liking the choke

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I wasn't going to post until I got everything going perfect, but...

20mm floats + 155 mains + 1.5 on needles was pretty damn near perfect (I think even the fuel level is within YZF spec now). As in, fired up right away, high idle on choke, "crisp" throttle... but far too lean up top! As in, wouldn't even rev past 7k at WOT.

158 mains (biggest I have) + 2 on needles fixed the top end, screwed up the midrange (5-7k WOT) and - somehow - choke. banghead

I really wish I had a portable EGA now.
yamaha_george
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Re: 660 not liking the choke

Post by yamaha_george »

ranmafan wrote:I wasn't going to post until I got everything going perfect, but...

20mm floats + 155 mains + 1.5 on needles was pretty damn near perfect (I think even the fuel level is within YZF spec now). As in, fired up right away, high idle on choke, "crisp" throttle... but far too lean up top! As in, wouldn't even rev past 7k at WOT.

158 mains (biggest I have) + 2 on needles fixed the top end, screwed up the midrange (5-7k WOT) and - somehow - choke. banghead

I really wish I had a portable EGA now.
Hi,
" talk " to AFFE email is :-
39 AT telia DOT com

he has a EGA device he designed and made up for bikers .
He has part assembled ones for sensible money (ie you need an O2 sensor and a case to pop the gadget in.)
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ranmafan
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Re: 660 not liking the choke

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yamaha_george wrote: Hi,
" talk " to AFFE email is :-
39 AT telia DOT com

he has a EGA device he designed and made up for bikers .
He has part assembled ones for sensible money (ie you need an O2 sensor and a case to pop the gadget in.)
Thanks,

I'll look into it. Getting/mounting/calibrating an O2 sensor is a bigger problem, though - I could cook something up for data logging myself, if the need arises and I still have the bike by then :)
yamaha_george
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Re: 660 not liking the choke

Post by yamaha_george »

Got a lead on mounting stuff for the sensor:-

http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/index.php?categoryID=82


They do plain steel & stainless steel if that is required.

Mine are in the post
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dru86
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Re: 660 not liking the choke

Post by dru86 »

You have to get the main jet size right before the needle jet. The needle jet throttles the main main jet until the slide has lifted all the way up. Changes to either of these two should not change the "choke" as it runs off a different circuit and since the slide is all the way down the needle jet is effectively blocking the main jet.

Have you had a look at something like the innovate wideband kits? These start from under $200 for the basic dial gauge with the sensor. You can spend abit more and get something like the LM1/LM2 which allow you to do data logging and have the option for other inputs (eg rpm, temps, boost, etc). I use the LM1 for my bike and car tuning.
fzr660/400: fzr400 3en1 frame, 3en2 swinger, custom single seat subframe, fzr660 motor conversion, APE adjustable cam gears, full D&D 4-2-1 exhaust, falicon clutch basket, ignitech ignition, R6 front end with tz250 wheel, ohlins shock, storz steering damper, tzr250 rear wheel.

weighs 166kg wet (25kg lighter than my stock fzr600).
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ranmafan
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Re: 660 not liking the choke

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dru86 wrote:You have to get the main jet size right before the needle jet. The needle jet throttles the main main jet until the slide has lifted all the way up. Changes to either of these two should not change the "choke" as it runs off a different circuit and since the slide is all the way down the needle jet is effectively blocking the main jet.
That's what I thought.... slight overlap between the circuits, but not enough to be easily noticeable.

But then, I've spent some time playing with different sizes (150 to 158), and it would seem main jet alone does have a noticeable effect on the enrichener (regular idle is unaffected). :headscratch: I also suspect the improvement after 20mm isn't by design, just some unintended air passage opening up due to extremely low fuel level...

Makes no sense, but it would explain why you don't have a problem and I do, despite having correct jetting.

I've left it with the smallest jets I have (152 inner/150 outer, which needed 16.5mm floats and 1.5 on needles)... if I see improvement tomorrow morning, I know I gotta look for some 138-140s...
Have you had a look at something like the innovate wideband kits? These start from under $200 for the basic dial gauge with the sensor. You can spend abit more and get something like the LM1/LM2 which allow you to do data logging and have the option for other inputs (eg rpm, temps, boost, etc). I use the LM1 for my bike and car tuning.
I've looked around for a bit, but I'm still basically clueless as to what's out there. Need to do more research first.

Ideally, I'd find a cheapo sensor, figure out a way to mount it inside the pipe without cutting/welding, then program some standard MCU kit to do data collection/interfacing. Now, the *smart* thing to do would be to get it "good enough", sell, and buy an EFI bike...
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Re: 660 not liking the choke

Post by yamaha_george »

Dru,
as an aside, the guy is in Canada and in my dealings or I should say attempted dealing with Innovate he may run into their rather parochial approach to sales

i.e sales in continental USA and make shipping, as quoted to me for an 8USD item + 75USDshipping.

I should add that Innovate are not alone in this kind of foolishness when dealing with customers off-shore

He would need to get a mate in the US to buy for him and ship it privately.
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Re: 660 not liking the choke

Post by dru86 »

George,
Alot of businesses will only send stuff UPS/DHL/fedex, hence massive shipping costs on small items overseas. If you want something from the US at reasonable shipping costs it has to be sent USPS, alternatively if they won't send USPS I use my forwarding address (I'm getting ~20 items a month from overseas so know all about overseas shipping).

Ranmafan,
I bought mine from an ebay store, there's plenty to choose from with reasonable shipping prices. Shipping was ~$40 to Australia for the LM1 kit, Canada would be even cheaper. For example this LC1 kit http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/370521522571 is $200 with shipping to Canada.
fzr660/400: fzr400 3en1 frame, 3en2 swinger, custom single seat subframe, fzr660 motor conversion, APE adjustable cam gears, full D&D 4-2-1 exhaust, falicon clutch basket, ignitech ignition, R6 front end with tz250 wheel, ohlins shock, storz steering damper, tzr250 rear wheel.

weighs 166kg wet (25kg lighter than my stock fzr600).
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